“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing,” Glasgow’s anti Racism, Fascism and Bigotry message

Commo Estas 64

Well-known member
probably the only one here to stand up for all lives matter. I see the black lives matter as a definition of colour- some are saying all are stupid to think it . We will never be equal until we drop the colour issue. its a fact. The purpose of isolating is to get control. How many more people would have fought for all lives matter to end injustice?
 

Niall J

Well-known member
What can she do though Niall? Posted this 👇the other day on another thread when discussing the issue with Kelly......

Trouble is Kelly the Scottish Government are dependent on institutions like the police and judiciary whose ranks (from top to bottom) are rife with the same BritNat/Loyalist ideology as these pricks. Aye the Scottish Government can create legislation to try and combat this shit but you need the police and the judiciary to enforce that legislation and they won't do that for 2 crucial reasons......

1. Like I said these 2 institutions are filled with people who see cracking down on these scumbags as 'going against their own' therefore they will do the bare minimum they can get away with.

2. Why would they assist a government that is run by a political party that is the very antithesis (seeks independence from the UK) to the ideology that permeates throughout every level of their institutions when it serves their purpose to undermine it instead.

Couple all that with a rabid media/press that are equally hostile to the Scottish Government for all the same reasons, who can blitz the airwaves and front pages with all sorts of bullshit and twisting of the narrative to manipulate public opinion, who will print partisan press releases from the Unionist parties like it's actual news then this particular Scottish government is virtually powerless when it comes to not only dealing with this shit but pretty much everything else that goes against this ideology.

The SNP might have been voted into power by the people of Scotland but it doesn't mean they actually have that much, not when all these institutions above can act in unison like a 5th Column of the British state and undermine them at every turn.


Now given this is what she's up against then she's virtually powerless to do anything in response.
Sadly you are probably correct Shadow, Sturgeon you are quite right has limited power as a First Minister, however she does have the strongest position of all to question and lead on the issue.

She can question the approach from the Police, she can come out and state she fully understands and stands by the right to protest peacefully. She can ask questions as to why the antagonists from Wednesday – which she came out and criticised in very strong terms- were not kettled yet a group of protesters were who to date had not been involved in any trouble were. She can then ask why the press were stopped from taking pictures of and reporting what was happening.

There were clear attempts in my opinion here from the Police to avoid public scrutiny of their actions and Sturgeon can question why.

That said you are right, it is clear she is up against an establishment who offer her little respect and certainly don’t appear to fear her. I’m not sure that would be any better in an independent country, those views and tactics don’t disappear because Scotland becomes independent, the situation in Westminster and who controls the levers was evident with Boris and Cummings. Sturgeon could lead here, she could be vocal, she could shine a light on the inconsistencies in policing and question those tactics publicly. And she could do that through the press that the Police were clearly fearful of by their actions in trying to silence them on Saturday, there didn’t appear to be a united front from Police and media on Saturday. That would at least bring the scrutiny they were so keen to avoid. Perhaps there are cracks that can be exploited.

Like you said earleir in the thread there are questions to be asked in the consistency of policing of those that protest and those seeking to disrupt it with evident violence. I'd like her to at least call that out. HH 🍀
 

michael duffy

Well-known member
Sadly you are probably correct Shadow, Sturgeon you are quite right has limited power as a First Minister, however she does have the strongest position of all to question and lead on the issue.

She can question the approach from the Police, she can come out and state she fully understands and stands by the right to protest peacefully. She can ask questions as to why the antagonists from Wednesday – which she came out and criticised in very strong terms- were not kettled yet a group of protesters were who to date had not been involved in any trouble were. She can then ask why the press were stopped from taking pictures of and reporting what was happening.

There were clear attempts in my opinion here from the Police to avoid public scrutiny of their actions and Sturgeon can question why.

That said you are right, it is clear she is up against an establishment who offer her little respect and certainly don’t appear to fear her. I’m not sure that would be any better in an independent country, those views and tactics don’t disappear because Scotland becomes independent, the situation in Westminster and who controls the levers was evident with Boris and Cummings. Sturgeon could lead here, she could be vocal, she could shine a light on the inconsistencies in policing and question those tactics publicly. And she could do that through the press that the Police were clearly fearful of by their actions in trying to silence them on Saturday, there didn’t appear to be a united front from Police and media on Saturday. That would at least bring the scrutiny they were so keen to avoid. Perhaps there are cracks that can be exploited.

Like you said earleir in the thread there are questions to be asked in the consistency of policing of those that protest and those seeking to disrupt it with evident violence. I'd like her to at least call that out. HH 🍀
Too pished to reply coherently,but remember talking to Gordon Wilson at an SNP conference, (Rothesay, clabby doo's) any way,independence wiz the goal. ah asked Gordon, how will the loyalists take it?,exactly! make the troubles look like a tea party!,the ulsterisation of Scottish politics is already underway, the cops have aligned themselves with the the statue protectors,the tory scum are calling out the SNP,for being careful?
and legitimate protest is being condemned in SMSM!,when the first,second, third and fourth estate are against you, your..........fecked! fair play to the Green Brigade, they knew exactly what was going to happen,and the cops reaction was exactly what was expected, will the next protest see the huns kettled? exactly, will they be condemned? Ha! lines are bein drawin folks, but hey, ah'm blootered! 🍺 🥳
 

Niall J

Well-known member
Too pished to reply coherently,but remember talking to Gordon Wilson at an SNP conference, (Rothesay, clabby doo's) any way,independence wiz the goal. ah asked Gordon, how will the loyalists take it?,exactly! make the troubles look like a tea party!,the ulsterisation of Scottish politics is already underway, the cops have aligned themselves with the the statue protectors,the tory scum are calling out the SNP,for being careful?
and legitimate protest is being condemned in SMSM!,when the first,second, third and fourth estate are against you, your..........fecked! fair play to the Green Brigade, they knew exactly what was going to happen,and the cops reaction was exactly what was expected, will the next protest see the huns kettled? exactly, will they be condemned? Ha! lines are bein drawin folks, but hey, ah'm blootered! 🍺 🥳
Aye MD, Shadow is right she is hamstrung and ignored. The police actions yesterday showed just that, but she and others still have a voice. Time they at least used what they do have and questioned the difference in tactics. Green Brigade not reacting and remaining peaceful under provocation was interesting and will the press conveniently moved away from the scene now have something to say? I won't be holding my breath but you live in hope. Like you say the next chapter could be interesting. Bevvied or not you make some good points. Enjoy! 🍻
 

boab1916

Well-known member
probably the only one here to stand up for all lives matter. I see the black lives matter as a definition of colour- some are saying all are stupid to think it . We will never be equal until we drop the colour issue. its a fact. The purpose of isolating is to get control. How many more people would have fought for all lives matter to end injustice?
Thats not the issue though, the BLM is the black commuities protest to bring to the fore the injustices they witness in their communities.
Black lives Matter is to highlight the issue that is happening on our watch, a black person is more likely to be discriminated against, killed, unemployed. recieve poor education and have no health care and die younger in a ghetto or rot in prison than a white person. What they they are highlighting is a white persons are more likely to have more privledges and chances in life than black persons.

The ghettos are not a product of the way black people live or want to live, ghettos are a product of discrimnate neglect and failure to address and be equal across the board, of course white people will fall into these traps, but its the fact that the black people never had the opportunity to escape the ghettos in the first instance and the fact that they had an education system doomed to fail when left to address the issues the kids brought from the neighbourhoods in the beginning, of course it was doomed to fail, so until the issues are addresssed and a balance struck for all to have equal oppurtunties then very much so black lives matter and we have to enforce their fight,and protest and be in their struggles to be recognised as human beings of equal and not inferior persons.

Also you will find that the all lives matter justice fight has been fought on many fronts, Spainish civil war, and world war 2 as an example to eradicate and erase facisism.
 

Shadow2

Well-known member
Sadly you are probably correct Shadow, Sturgeon you are quite right has limited power as a First Minister, however she does have the strongest position of all to question and lead on the issue.

She can question the approach from the Police, she can come out and state she fully understands and stands by the right to protest peacefully. She can ask questions as to why the antagonists from Wednesday – which she came out and criticised in very strong terms- were not kettled yet a group of protesters were who to date had not been involved in any trouble were. She can then ask why the press were stopped from taking pictures of and reporting what was happening.

There were clear attempts in my opinion here from the Police to avoid public scrutiny of their actions and Sturgeon can question why.

That said you are right, it is clear she is up against an establishment who offer her little respect and certainly don’t appear to fear her. I’m not sure that would be any better in an independent country, those views and tactics don’t disappear because Scotland becomes independent, the situation in Westminster and who controls the levers was evident with Boris and Cummings. Sturgeon could lead here, she could be vocal, she could shine a light on the inconsistencies in policing and question those tactics publicly. And she could do that through the press that the Police were clearly fearful of by their actions in trying to silence them on Saturday, there didn’t appear to be a united front from Police and media on Saturday. That would at least bring the scrutiny they were so keen to avoid. Perhaps there are cracks that can be exploited.

Like you said earleir in the thread there are questions to be asked in the consistency of policing of those that protest and those seeking to disrupt it with evident violence. I'd like her to at least call that out. HH 🍀
Naw I agree 100% Niall when you say NS should be coming out and condemning this and asking those who head up Police Scotland the very questions you highlighted above but what I'm driving at here is then what? What comes after the questions and condemnation?

Kelly made the point about how paying lip service to this is not enough, that without action criticism of her government will rise and support for it will wane and he is bang on. The question I'm posing here is what, beyond her condemning Police Scotland's actions and asking the questions you raised above, can she actually do?

Any government's ability to govern is wholly dependent upon the cooperation of institutions like the Police, Judiciary etc. so what happens when those institutions are so politically and ideologically opposed to that government that they not only withdraw their cooperation but seek to undermine it's ability to govern?

In a situation like this how can a government take action? How can they enforce the law when trying to clamp down on violent far-right British Nationalist racists, how can they uphold the fair treatment and rights of peaceful protesters opposing that violence and racism when those they depend on to enforce that law and protect those rights are not only actively undermining and working against them due to political/ideological opposition but are in fact more politically aligned (at least) with those engaging in the violence?

You're also correct to say the Police were trying to avoid scrutiny yesterday but it wasn't the scrutiny of the national media they were trying to avoid it was the scrutiny of social and independent media.

Police Scotland, like everybody else in this country, knows fine well how Scotland's media works and where it's political and cultural allegiances lie so they had no need to worry about how they would be portrayed by the national press when they ran with the Green Brigade being a 'football risk group' excuse for kettling the protesters. The same way they had no need to worry when allowing far-right BritNats to run amok because that same press would equivocate and obfuscate by banging on about 'rival factions' and anti-anti-fascists instead of calling them exactly what they were......far-right British Nationalists!

You yourself have condemned the behaviour and written often enough about the allegiances and bias of the Scottish press Niall. You've made clear your distrust of them on many occasions and have done so again just today so I'm confused as to why you'd trust them to allow Nicola Sturgeon, the leader of a party they are known to despise, a fair opportunity to criticise the Police and ask probing questions of them without resorting to a twisting of the issue through their usual Unionist spin and their gifting of a larger platform to opposition politicians to launch a barrage of political attacks on her and her government.

Again I agree Niall, like you say all these views and problems will not magically disappear overnight if Scotland became independent but if we were then we could start to dismantle the foundations they are built on! Change doesn't come from standing still and accepting the status quo, we won't rid ourselves of these problems and backward attitudes by preserving the system that promotes and instils them in our society or by waiting on the electorate of another nation to free us from a toxic British Nationalist mentality that too many of them refuse to let go of!

Independence is not a fix-all solution and it would be ridiculous for anyone to claim it was but it does offer us the opportunity to determine our own path as a society, it would allow us to challenge and address some of these and the other problems we face as a country without the interference of a UK establishment and UK media that props up and seeks to keep these backward attitudes, ideals and people in place for it's own selfish ends even though they are to the detriment of the people who live here.

I'm not trying to draw you or anyone else into an argument or get into some drawn out political debate but we all know how things currently operate in Scotland and I'm genuinely asking does anyone have a solution to how we deal with these issues because other than breaking the system that perpetuates these problems I'm at a loss as to how we fix them.

Apologies for the lengthy reply mate but it's hard to explain where I'm coming from in a couple of paragraphs :)(y) HH Niall 🍀
 
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Niall J

Well-known member
What comes after questions and condemnation is further questions and more condemnation. Outside an authoritarian approach that is what we have. Questions asked and answers questioned, that’s the best you can offer. The separation of all the estates is what makes a democracy. The alternative is an alignment or a consensus. One is totalitarian the other no-one gets what they want. Sturgeon can do no more than condemn or question, that sadly is all any democratic leader can offer, the alternative is take control themselves. Lip service is perhaps an example of politics in action. All politics.

As you say when the judiciary and Police etc are opposed to the message from government you could argue that is healthy. When the voice of the leader is undermined it is up to that leader to call on pressure upon the opponents. It’s not easy but again that is democracy, day to day politics. Normally within a parliament building, occasionally outside- as now.

The police have no fear of scrutiny from social media that happened yesterday. As much as you or I live in the world of new media the majority still don’t. If it’s not on STV or BBC then it’s not happening, yesterday saw the police win that battle. Look at msm yesterday and today, outside of twitter messages and videos it was something that didn’t happen.

So how can the government take action? Perhaps that’s not the right question, perhaps it’s less action and more alignment with what the government believe and to continue the rhetoric in that vein, that slowly but surely gets the message across. You don’t need a sledgehammer to crack a nut, just a continuous tapping of a nut cracker will get there eventually, especially if it’s palatable to the masses and alienates the minority. Consistency of a message can defeat a forceful approach. As long as you continue that consistency and don’t back down and go off message.

You are right I do condemn the bias of the press though I rarely involve myself in national politics until recently (even then I considered getting involved I prefer to write about football. Really!).

I distrust all politicians I find it healthy to do so, democracy works by questioning. But it’s not for Sturgeon to be afforded an opportunity to criticise it’s up to Sturgeon to expect the cut paste and twist and get her message across via her own media links. The unionist spin should surely be something she is more than used too. She should know how to not only manoeuvre around it but find a voice that rises above the rival message. Especially in a local environment that she is more than used to navigating. Local knowledge an all that.

As for your last point, I am not against Independence, I’d love to see it though since leaving Scotland I have no say, so I’m careful in how I portray my opinion. For what it’s worth I think Scotland would benefit in the long term though would bear short term pain.
Do I think it would make much difference to opposing unionism, loyalism etc? I reserve judgement, genuinely reserve it as I simply don’t know. I can see an argument they’d be emboldened and another they could be marginalised eventually. That is a leap of faith which I’m sure you have more than considered yourself.
You youself say you are at a loss, now I don't know yor age but i'm touching 40 soon- too soon, and I don't have an answer to your queries I'm afraid. I wish I did, I'd wish you had an answer to mine but thats for another day. Perhaps over a pint or 6. I do know I'd like that chat :)
HH shadow 🍀
 

kelly

Well-known member
Naw I agree 100% Niall when you say NS should be coming out and condemning this and asking those who head up Police Scotland the very questions you highlighted above but what I'm driving at here is then what? What comes after the questions and condemnation?

Answers , answers they will need to stand up and not fly under the guise of football rish groups


Kelly made the point about how paying lip service to this is not enough, that without action criticism of her government will rise and support for it will wane and he is bang on. The question I'm posing here is what, beyond her condemning Police Scotland's actions and asking the questions you raised above, can she actually do?

Call it out , speak up bring Scotlands shame out into the open she has everything to lose by ignoring it , ok you say she's powerless but she's not lost her voice and as an irish catholic her stance so far would not gain mine or any of my familys vote

she was vocal on the first day and so was Hamsa yousef ,,,and now .....silence

if it was black marchers being kettled yesterday we would be sreaming racists and want something done where as right now were saying she's powerless to stop a bigoted police force enforce the law or to answer for there actions
i decided against writing a box set
 

kelly

Well-known member
😂😂😂

For the record I wisnae having a pop at you in any way on this thread mate I was actually agreeing with you in regards to your comment about paying lip service. Words are all good and well but when do those words lead to action, the question I was always posing was what action if any can be taken? (y)
i know you werent and neither was i just replyed to a few points ,(y)
 

Shadow2

Well-known member
'What comes after questions and condemnation is further questions and more condemnation. Outside an authoritarian approach that is what we have. Questions asked and answers questioned, that’s the best you can offer. The separation of all the estates is what makes a democracy. The alternative is an alignment or a consensus. One is totalitarian the other no-one gets what they want. Sturgeon can do no more than condemn or question, that sadly is all any democratic leader can offer, the alternative is take control themselves. Lip service is perhaps an example of politics in action. All politics.'

And that's kinda my point mate, round and round we go and all the while nothing changes! You are spot on the separation of all the estates IS what makes a democracy but unfortunately that's not the case here though as almost all of Scotland's estates are aligned with the UK political establishment so how can that be a true democracy especially when the people of Scotland have rejected that establishment's approach at the ballot box?

'As you say when the judiciary and Police etc are opposed to the message from government you could argue that is healthy. When the voice of the leader is undermined it is up to that leader to call on pressure upon the opponents. It’s not easy but again that is democracy, day to day politics. Normally within a parliament building, occasionally outside- as now.

The police have no fear of scrutiny from social media that happened yesterday. As much as you or I live in the world of new media the majority still don’t. If it’s not on STV or BBC then it’s not happening, yesterday saw the police win that battle. Look at msm yesterday and today, outside of twitter messages and videos it was something that didn’t happen.

So how can the government take action? Perhaps that’s not the right question, perhaps it’s less action and more alignment with what the government believe and to continue the rhetoric in that vein, that slowly but surely gets the message across. You don’t need a sledgehammer to crack a nut, just a continuous tapping of a nut cracker will get there eventually, especially if it’s palatable to the masses and alienates the minority. Consistency of a message can defeat a forceful approach. As long as you continue that consistency and don’t back down and go off message.'


Is that opposition by judiciary and police to government healthy when it results in fascists and racists who intimidate and attack peaceful protesters being afforded more freedoms and rights by those institutions than those who are protesting peacefully? Is that not the oppression of one in favour of the other and is that not an abandonment of their duties when those they afford more freedoms to are breaking the law they're supposed to uphold?

Also how can that government put pressure on those opponents in these institutions and get it's message across when as you say the mainstream media that most people are exposed to pretends that nothing untoward took place yesterday or that it was the 'coming together of rival factions' earlier in the week instead of what is was, far right racists attacking a peaceful refugee march? The only other avenue left open to that government to get their message across then becomes social media but again as you say the majority of the public don't inhabit that world so therefore the message never reaches the masses and again nothing changes! How can Sturgeon manoeuvre around that unionist spin when she's being boxed in by the above reality?

You make some cracking points Niall and they kinda get to the heart of what I was originally driving at, beyond condemnation and asking questions Sturgeon is ultimately hamstrung by the political reality she finds herself in!

Appreciate the reasoned reply mate. HH and much respect 🍀(y)
 

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