Apathy

[TET]

So, TET , are you advocating we do nothing to attempt to alter the dismal performances of the coach/team ?

Yes , those teams mentioned do get obscene monies from TV but we didn't have those monies last season or the season before or the season before ....

We were in a position of complete dominance under Brendan Rodgers . No one can deny that we have regressed spectacularly under Neil Lennon .
Many supporters felt ( for whatever reason ) that appointing Neil Lennon permanently after the Scottisg Cup win was a backwards step . No one denied that Lennon had stepped in to help at a crucial time and was , rightly , thanked for that . But few I would suggest thought that he was a better coach than Rodgers or that he would improve the team .

We won the league comfortably last year - when Sevco combusted after the Winter break . Ironically we have done the same this year . But even if we hadn't - would we have won the league ? Sevco have improved their consistency levels to that which we had previously . This is down , I would suggest , to their coaching ( by whoever does it - not Stevie G ! )

We know that we cant compete for player wages or coaches with the ''Big Leagues '' - just in salary for a CEO !
Where is the vision that would get us a coach who at least knows the basics of the modern game ? Lennon has been out thought on so many occasions by coaches of 'inferior' teams in his second tenure that we now have the situation where we have lost twice to , what was , the bottom team in the division .
Many Celtic coaches have been issued with their P45s for less !

So change is needed - but within our reduced budget . Although , as I have mentioned on another thread , if Sevco can have their directors bail out their club with no comment on Financial Fair Play from the SFA , why can't our billionaire DD add a little to the pot and help US out ?

HH

Have not said do nothing

But that article highlights the huge gulf in understanding of what is a big club these days

And it avoids reality factors

Like covid
Like fact lennon has a better cv than most of dudes on list
Like fact we are potentially gonna lose 30 million + this season

Im all for sacking lennon for being pish

But the article is supposedly about getting a firm grip on reality

But despite claiming thats what its about it really avoids every single massive factor in this seasons demise then looks at fantasy situations based on what real big clubs do when things aren't going well


the article suggests celtic lost league in November

well they needed a kick in stones for sure

but im no sure that sacking lennon while he was still in contention for title was what a big club would do in covid pandemic with all the other factors this weird season holds


hindsight is great

sure many predicted lenny would feck up

but they predicted that last season too

]and you might find they will be predicting next manager will feck up as well coz he aint a bg club manager


So key reality question should be


Are celtic a big club with ordinary income streams before CL gamble of around 40 million per season

does that make us in the big club category

Can celtic be classed as big club when they dont big club tv deals?

And if they deserve better who gonna fund this massive upgrade system?

 

[Frank Owen]

Massive change in what way?

Hi Tet, change in three departments, manager and scouting being the most obvious. if we add a DOF , then, that's massive to me. If I can turn the tide a wee bit; do you feel we don't need change ? And if you do, where would you make that change ?

 

[TET]

Hi Tet, change in three departments, manager and scouting being the most obvious. if we add a DOF , then, that's massive to me. If I can turn the tide a wee bit; do you feel we don't need change ? And if you do, where would you make that change ?

We need better manager for certain.

Lenny either found out or he lost his marbles.

But who fits the bill?

The market for players is broken badly

So we need someone who can navigate market better than current set up

We also need to find it by targeting market we know, like maybe Scotland top tier.

And we need a manager young enough but experienced enough to motivate winners and keep it motivated.

very tough ask

if Celtic are priced out the market for best players and manager

Which tv deals have done.

We must buy from lesser markets and hope we win a watch

coz the higher grade markets come with buyer beware wages and they often aren't much higher grade than cheap markets

But thats the crux

they are usually a wee bit better so the lesser market players often are not good enough to play flamboyant winning football

And that is where the big shortfall between ambition and reality comes into play

Celtic fans dont do finance but expect CL quality players on Celtic sustainability model and expect board to cover shortfall

And if they dont they aint buying tickets

 

[BigMaz]

Bayern Munich will earn €105M in Bundesliga TV money alone this season!

Not every team will earn remotely close to that amount, though. Should broadcasting revenue be shared more evenly?

www.bavarianfootballworks.com

Just for domestic German football Batern get more from sky than we get for cl and treble and full season book sell out

I can see why they can afford to sack their manager and replace in seconds with another top coach.


Oh and Juventus got 100M from their tv rights alone

But both got less than every team in EPL from tv deals all got over 100M from tv alone just for epl games

Wow

Celtic I think got 5 million

But we somehow can afford to get a top grade coach and staff based on the broken market?

defensive coaching alone is much easier than all out attack and I doubt very much any of the managers in scotland would be classed as upgrade on lennon.

So the article for me does highlight the huge gulf in fans expectations based on comparisons with other clubs in totally different criteria


lenny has proven himself to be inept this season in many ways

But his replacement needs to be better

And I dont fancy the Livingston or Ross County coach as Celtic manager

I would very happily take the Ross County coach as a caretaker manager to the end of the season and as a member of a new coaching team next year.
Who are we to be so elitist about it ? John Hughes likes teams and players that play football but can also reorganise them to suit whatever is in front of them. He completely predicted on TV what was going to happen on Sunday i.e. " we keep a clean sheet and head the ball in both boxes " and wins the game - we couldn't do it with supposedly better players - and lost. He correctly ( & rather sadly) identified Ajer as a big attacking thereat and did something about it. He made 3 at once bold subs at the absolute right time instead of our too late and usually baffling or like for like ones. He was interesting and open in press interviews. His teams have beaten us , Aberdeen & Hibs - although they got battered by Rangers - they are the best team in the league currently tho - but I suspect that won't happen again - he will have learned. Rangers coaching improvement is not I suspect down to Gerrard or maybe even McAllister - some unknown coach or coaches have done that.
I'd rather have Yogi preparing them and sending them out against Rangers than the current lot - either seemingly hands in pockets ignoring everyone (Kennedy) or stuck watching their ipad (Strachan).
Its largely about coaching and conditioning - not big money - certainly not in Scotland. Lovely training academy at Lennoxtown - get the best youths into the system and structurally bring them through into the first team. They might become CL players and fund the next lot. People like Hughes, Steve Clarke etc are good at that stuff. We wouldn't need to be buying the Turnbulls, Taylors, Christies, Gallaghers etc - we would have them. We managed that with Forrest, Tierney , McGregor etc - but needs to be sustained.

 

[Imatim]

You wanting Livingston coach?

he got good right up in your article

We could set up 631 every game

would be a massive change

......................

A massive change would be to lift our current standards and seriously sort out the malaise that’s permeating through our Club.....and put a plan in place very soon comprehensively restructuring how we currently do things.....from the current non coaching set up we currently have.....to the tactical naivety we witness regularly.....to the sports science principles which has apparently deteriorated since BR moved on.....to the way we waste copious amounts of money on loan players.....in buying projects and overloading the squad with players we don’t necessarily need.....instead of simply identifying and buying players we need for selective positions.....and so on.....and so on.

It’s all about innovative planning and setting standards high and maintaining them.....if standards are allowed to slip then so will results.....and that applies to the boardroom as well as those connected with the teams.....and that’s a major factor in what’s happened to us imo.

We need to modernise and restructure things by appointing the right people who understand the modem game throughout the Club.....there are clubs out there who have done this on comparable budgets to ours or even less.....they do exist in countries like Belgium, Holland et al.

There are European teams out there.....even some we have come up against that I believe Support this.

The status quo is not an option.

Fail to plan.....plan to fail.

 

[BigMaz]

......................

A massive change would be to lift our current standards and seriously sort out the malaise that’s permeating through our Club.....and put a plan in place very soon comprehensively restructuring how we currently do things.....from the current non coaching set up we currently have.....to the tactical naivety we witness regularly.....to the sports science principles which has apparently deteriorated since BR moved on.....to the way we waste copious amounts of money on loan players.....in buying projects and overloading the squad with players we don’t necessarily need.....instead of simply identifying and buying players we need for selective positions.....and so on.....and so on.

It’s all about innovative planning and setting standards high and maintaining them.....if standards are allowed to slip then so will results.....and that applies to the boardroom as well as those connected with the teams.....and that’s a major factor in what’s happened to us imo.

We need to modernise and restructure things by appointing the right people who understand the modem game throughout the Club.....there are clubs out there who have done this on comparable budgets to ours or even less.....they do exist in countries like Belgium, Holland et al.

There are European teams out there.....even some we have come up against that I believe Support this.

The status quo is not an option.

Fail to plan.....plan to fail.

Brilliant response - all common sense and realism. Learn from the so called cannon fodder that beat us in Europe every year.

 

[TET]

I would very happily take the Ross County coach as a caretaker manager to the end of the season and as a member of a new coaching team next year.
Who are we to be so elitist about it ? John Hughes likes teams and players that play football but can also reorganise them to suit whatever is in front of them. He completely predicted on TV what was going to happen on Sunday i.e. " we keep a clean sheet and head the ball in both boxes " and wins the game - we couldn't do it with supposedly better players - and lost. He correctly ( & rather sadly) identified Ajer as a big attacking thereat and did something about it. He made 3 at once bold subs at the absolute right time instead of our too late and usually baffling or like for like ones. He was interesting and open in press interviews. His teams have beaten us , Aberdeen & Hibs - although they got battered by Rangers - they are the best team in the league currently tho - but I suspect that won't happen again - he will have learned. Rangers coaching improvement is not I suspect down to Gerrard or maybe even McAllister - some unknown coach or coaches have done that.
I'd rather have Yogi preparing them and sending them out against Rangers than the current lot - either seemingly hands in pockets ignoring everyone (Kennedy) or stuck watching their ipad (Strachan).
Its largely about coaching and conditioning - not big money - certainly not in Scotland. Lovely training academy at Lennoxtown - get the best youths into the system and structurally bring them through into the first team. They might become CL players and fund the next lot. People like Hughes, Steve Clarke etc are good at that stuff. We wouldn't need to be buying the Turnbulls, Taylors, Christies, Gallaghers etc - we would have them. We managed that with Forrest, Tierney , McGregor etc - but needs to be sustained.

Thats opposite of what that article suggesting btw

I fully agree with gist of your plan

But thats not what majority of celtic fans are expecting

And is that the big club thing that celtic fans expect?

What was tried this season was the big club fallacy

yet its been touted as biscuit tin.

Lennon has better cv than most of the dudes at these lesser clubs punching above their weight.

But yeah he flunked all those wins at celtic coz we are a big club

he also beat some massive clubs along the way but lets point out only the fixtures we want to remember

 

[Frank Owen]

We need better manager for certain.

Lenny either found out or he lost his marbles.

But who fits the bill?

The market for players is broken badly

So we need someone who can navigate market better than current set up

We also need to find it by targeting market we know, like maybe Scotland top tier.

And we need a manager young enough but experienced enough to motivate winners and keep it motivated.

very tough ask

if Celtic are priced out the market for best players and manager

Which tv deals have done.

We must buy from lesser markets and hope we win a watch

coz the higher grade markets come with buyer beware wages and they often aren't much higher grade than cheap markets

But thats the crux

they are usually a wee bit better so the lesser market players often are not good enough to play flamboyant winning football

And that is where the big shortfall between ambition and reality comes into play

Celtic fans dont do finance but expect CL quality players on Celtic sustainability model and expect board to cover shortfall

And if they dont they aint buying tickets

I think we're pretty much in agreement TET. You've more or less summed up the massive changes I would like to see. And, of course, you are correct to point out the great difficulty in achieving those changes. That's why I feel it's more important to do it right than to do it quick.

 

[Frank Owen]

......................

A massive change would be to lift our current standards and seriously sort out the malaise that’s permeating through our Club.....and put a plan in place very soon comprehensively restructuring how we currently do things.....from the current non coaching set up we currently have.....to the tactical naivety we witness regularly.....to the sports science principles which has apparently deteriorated since BR moved on.....to the way we waste copious amounts of money on loan players.....in buying projects and overloading the squad with players we don’t necessarily need.....instead of simply identifying and buying players we need for selective positions.....and so on.....and so on.

It’s all about innovative planning and setting standards high and maintaining them.....if standards are allowed to slip then so will results.....and that applies to the boardroom as well as those connected with the teams.....and that’s a major factor in what’s happened to us imo.

We need to modernise and restructure things by appointing the right people who understand the modem game throughout the Club.....there are clubs out there who have done this on comparable budgets to ours or even less.....they do exist in countries like Belgium, Holland et al.

There are European teams out there.....even some we have come up against that I believe Support this.

The status quo is not an option.

Fail to plan.....plan to fail.

Absolutely agree with you Imatim. Your post is spot on. A breath of fresh air.

 

[Colbhoy]

Just a thought, I read James Forest this morning & he was giving scenarios of why we have not changed manager yet, I have read on here & other places that they feel managers don't want to be associated with loosing the 10, well hopefully after they win it mathematically we can move forward & apoint someone. So that they don't have the baggage of being in charge when we lost it.

 

[Toffeebhoy]

There's a theme that's being echoed in just about every Celtic Forum and that is one of APATHY.

The anger is still palpable but in many cases apathy is beginning to take the place of anger.

We are in very dangerous territory as a Club. The status quo is not acceptable. The Support needs to believe things are going to change and change very soon for the better.

The sound bites from Neil Lennon that he is looking at a summer rebuild is the talk of fantasy. He simply has to be told his time has come and gone.

The longer we continue in the same vein the worse it's going to get.

This is not a Support with a sense of entitlement your dealing with Mr Desmond.

This is a people with a cause and you need to understand that before it's too late.

PS I think Niall could say this better if he chooses to run with this topic.

Dermot has too much money and interests to be bothered.
Apathy? Think so.
One thing a few of us have noticed past few years, very few kids in Dublin & south wearing Celtic kits , nothing like it was. My home county Donegal & the North general, you'd still see plenty but reckon even that is nothing like it was 20 years ago and before.

 

[The Deadner]

Dermot has too much money and interests to be bothered.
Apathy? Think so.
One thing a few of us have noticed past few years, very few kids in Dublin & south wearing Celtic kits , nothing like it was. My home county Donegal & the North general, you'd still see plenty but reckon even that is nothing like it was 20 years ago and before.

That's because of the English premier league and the coverage it gets. But that's no different than when I was growing up. It was always Liverpool or Utd. My family were the odd ones out supporting Celtic. Infact my young lad has introduced a load of his friends to Celtic, but they still support premier league teams too.

 

[Colbhoy]

Understand the pull the EPL has but Celtic has to do more to promote it's self or support will diminish world wide over time. Apathy can set in & I know we all want change & the board has to promote its self more locally & world wide, hope a new CEO & manager kick starts it.

 

[Toffeebhoy]

That's because of the English premier league and the coverage it gets. But that's no different than when I was growing up. It was always Liverpool or Utd. My family were the odd ones out supporting Celtic. Infact my young lad has introduced a load of his friends to Celtic, but they still support premier league teams too.

Yes but thats been like that for generations now. Clear to me all the EPL clubs are growing their fan base in Ireland. Are Celtic? I don't see it.
I am just saying what I see around Dublin on way to work each day, and this has been going on for a few years. Id say it has to do with the lack of recent European success.
Got to be honest here and say last few seasons have been shocking in Europe.

 

[Toffeebhoy]

Understand the pull the EPL has but Celtic has to do more to promote it's self or support will diminish world wide over time. Apathy can set in & I know we all want change & the board has to promote its self more locally & world wide, hope a new CEO & manager kick starts it.

Remember reading a newco suit admitting they could not compete with Celtic globally because of the Irish diaspora. If Celtic forget to promote their Irish links they'll also lose out in North America and Australia. Think some of our suits have taken fans for granted.

 

[Frank Owen]

Got to say I too feel the global pull the club has enjoyed is in danger of being diminished. As someone else on The Noise has said, the reason is most likely our lack of success in Europe.

I was in New York a number years back and went to the Parlour bar to watch the Celtic v Kilmarnock league cup final. Some of you may have visited The Parlour as it's the home of the New York Celtic Supporters Club. The place was absolutely mobbed with folk wearing The Hoops. I could've been in Bairds Bar. Granted, it was also St Patrick's weekend. I'll never forget it as long as I live.

 

[The Deadner]

Yes but thats been like that for generations now. Clear to me all the EPL clubs are growing their fan base in Ireland. Are Celtic? I don't see it.
I am just saying what I see around Dublin on way to work each day, and this has been going on for a few years. Id say it has to do with the lack of recent European success.
Got to be honest here and say last few seasons have been shocking in Europe.

It's no different than it always was. Most young lads support premier league teams, because they promote it as the so called best league in the world and basically look down their nose at Scotland. I personally think it's up to Celtic supporting parents to pass the history on to their children. I took my young lad over several times. One time I booked the tour and he was blown away with the video they show about the club's history. I even took over a bus of over thirty children who are now hooked for life,even though they wrecked the superstore and tortured me, it was worth it seeing them all goin home kitted out in new Celtic gear. That's the best way to promote the club.

 

[The Deadner]

Got to say I too feel the global pull the club has enjoyed is in danger of being diminished. As someone else on The Noise has said, the reason is most likely our lack of success in Europe.

I was in New York a number years back and went to the Parlour bar to watch the Celtic v Kilmarnock league cup final. Some of you may have visited The Parlour as it's the home of the New York Celtic Supporters Club. The place was absolutely mobbed with folk wearing The Hoops. I could've been in Bairds Bar. Granted, it was also St Patrick's weekend. I'll never forget it as long as I live.

I know the parlour well Frank. Manys a lock in all nighter I had in there especially when the games were starting at half 7 the next morning. Most a the lads wouldn't be able to see the tv come game time. The craic was unreal.

 

[Frank Owen]

I know the parlour well Frank. Manys a lock in all nighter I had in there especially when the games were starting at half 7 the next morning. Most a the lads wouldn't be able to see the tv come game time. The craic was unreal.

As I said TD, it's a memory I'll cherish until I meet the reaper. I was there with my brother who has since passed away. He had never been outside the UK, so that made it even more special. He told me many times it was one of the best things he'd ever enjoyed as a Celtic supporter. I would definitely recommend New York on St Patrick's weekend. Absolutely brilliant.

 

[According to Saul]

There's a theme that's being echoed in just about every Celtic Forum and that is one of APATHY.

The anger is still palpable but in many cases apathy is beginning to take the place of anger.

We are in very dangerous territory as a Club. The status quo is not acceptable. The Support needs to believe things are going to change and change very soon for the better.

The sound bites from Neil Lennon that he is looking at a summer rebuild is the talk of fantasy. He simply has to be told his time has come and gone.

The longer we continue in the same vein the worse it's going to get.

This is not a Support with a sense of entitlement your dealing with Mr Desmond.

This is a people with a cause and you need to understand that before it's too late.

PS I think Niall could say this better if he chooses to run with this topic.

No,you’re doing just fine herself Ima