Bloody Sunday

The Deadner

Well-known member
#41
Another statement by the UK government today.
They will fully support the soldier who is being charged.
Can you imagine the out-pouring of anger, rightly so, if Donald Trump came out today and told the world that his government would fully back an American soldier who opened fire on American civilians attending a black civil rights march...the whole world would condemn him!!

Let's not forget. Whether the people of northern Ireland like it or not....this was British soldiers who massacred british citizens on british streets.

The politician who are throwing their full support behind these murderers and their crimes were alive when it happened....this didnt happen in medieval times.

I know I shouldn't be but I'm fucking shocked.
Irish citizens on Irish streets..........
 

Lubos left peg

Well-known member
#42
Irish citizens on Irish streets..........
Sorry Deadner...i don't mean to offend. Please don't think I agree with British rule in northern Ireland. I was making the point that in the eyes of the world the north is part of the UK. And the people who live there are seen as UK citizens. I was only making that point to compare it to being the same as American soldiers in American streets.
 

The Deadner

Well-known member
#43
Sorry Deadner...i don't mean to offend. Please don't think I agree with British rule in northern Ireland. I was making the point that in the eyes of the world the north is part of the UK. And the people who live there are seen as UK citizens. I was only making that point to compare it to being the same as American soldiers in American streets.
I know the point you were tryin to make lubo, but to me that is very close to the bone. I just couldn't let it slide. I was born and raised and still live in the six counties and hold and always have held an Irish passport. I'm Irish plain and simple as were the innocent people slaughtered by these scummy bastards. I know you didn't mean to cause offence, but I would be lying to you if I said I wasn't offended by that comment. I know you're a decent bloke, so I won't dwell on it.
 
#44
I'm sure as an Irishman, TD appreciates that it will be commented upon as a british domestic issue.

He was very right to emphasise the fact that Irish nationals do not recognise a hostile sovereign body, but you were also correct in describing how it will play out in certain media outlets (ironically, those outlets more sympathetic to our cause).

This is not just an Irish matter. This is a violation of humanity and any fair-minded human being should be horrified and disgusted at what came to pass.
 

the great jc

Well-known member
#46
If it was ordinary people that had died on that January day, the courts would never had treated this matter so glibly.
They WOULD be dragging the military over the coals for this.
This is contemptuous behaviour yet again, by the crown and her royal lickspittlers.

But it is not ordinary people, it is Catholics who are being discussed here, people who have the Pope as their spiritual mentor, people who are beneath them, people who are not thought of on the same level as all the rest.

If I had a personal interest in this, if this had affected my family, I would have dealt my own brand of justice.
I don't care one iota, not a scintilla, who may or may not agree with me, and have seen it meted out to others where homework was done, unadulterated and precise, with rectitude duly dispatched.
For me, it was fitting and proper these individuals met their deserts. I have made sure there was no mistake, and the right person/persons were availed with justice suitably served.
NO-ONE WILL DECIDE FOR ME WHAT MY INTERPRETATION OF JUSTICE SHOULD BE, OR HOW IT MAY BE CONVEYED TO ANOTHER.
I do not hold with appointed adjuncts of the law to rule for me and never will, and nor am I afraid to say so.
Ergo, neither will I counter sway on another, or whatever THEY see as their construal view of justice.

We may all have regrets as we journey through life, I do too, but today this level of injustice demands a suitable retort.
Reciprocity at the very least could be a consideration and would not surprise me if repercussions are already aforethought.

The British political classes claim they want a permanent peace, one that's fair to all, but have callously overlooked the depth of feelings involved, in what is tantamount to cold and calculated murder, apportioned to one half of the community.

This cavalier and blatant partiality might see a new beginning that will not bode well and one no-one wanted.... ever again.
It may burgeon a tangible anger, taking root, feeding a creation emboldened and nurtured by today's outcome. This was a gamble too far, and one that was conducted under the sword of Damocles.
'Whitewash' is a well worn term of all things corrupt, but Irish Catholics are used to this by now.
The Real question is how many more whitewashes will they stand before Northern Ireland is consumed in bitter recriminations again.


Today, there is an added advantage for those who may take up the violent option to right the wrongs of so many years ago. An advantage that they never had then, pushing for a fairer deal of human and civil rights. The internet, mobile phones and VPN's will add another dimension to steel their determination and yearning for what is simply justice.
I fear after today's brazen negation and incompassion for the bereaved who only hoped for a satisfactory closure and are still hurting after 47 years.
I feel for them and their pain and disappointment, but mostly for what may result from this.
Things have been on a knife edge recently where factions from both sides have been simmering with distrust, notwithstanding the recent objects claimed to be found in Glasgow.

ONLY THIS TIME, IT WON'T BE SO EASILY TALKED AWAY ON ANOTHER GOOD FRIDAY, OR ANY FUTURE EASTER SUNDAY AGREEMENT.
THE EVENTS OF THE 'SUNDAY' IN QUESTION SHOULD HAVE BEEN AN OPPORTUNITY, ENOUGH TO OFFER SUCCOUR, NULLIFYING THE CONCERNS FOR WHAT MIGHT YET BECOME A FUTURE OF REGRET.


I have been 'lucky' to finance decisions and make 'suitable' plans where it can never come back to me.
Puzo's Godfather doesn't come close to events I have witnessed as a child, and in some ways have become battle hardened.......if not immune to 'certain' experiences.
I am no hero nor a coward, but I will be assuaged if wronged.
I do not think I am better than anyone else, and appreciate my own fallibility. I hope I have been more than fair to others, as I have gone through my life, and have been brought up to respect others irrespective of colour or creed.

One person being found guilty, is an appeasement for the Bloody Sunday atrocities and arrogance in the extreme. It is nothing more than a bone thrown to redirect the dogs.
Almost as if its an itch that needs to be scratched and sorted by this patsy used as their fall guy... give them something; ANYTHING.... 'that'll do them, they'll go away now'........well....... not in my bible it won't.

When I'm at mass I sometimes ask HIM if I'm wrong to seek revenge or vengeance, and if so, then take the life from my lungs as you see fit.
Years ago, my mother would remind me what the good book said, when Jesus stayed Peter's hand as he tried to slay the Romans coming for him and Pilate's 'intercession', saying to Peter, "Justice and revenge belong to my Father and to HIM alone".
My mother would finish saying "leave them to God's justice, in time he will deal out his punishment".
I said that would be fine, but these people don't believe in God and think this life is all there is and therefore, will not be held accountable after death.
I will reprimand them for their wrongs in THIS life.... right now.....while STILL hoping HE does his will on their expiration.
Today's decision is another 'couldn't care less' attitude delivered to a community long looked upon as an easy touch, an unceasing and unremitting unaccountability from those who call themselves public servants of the British Judiciary.
The passive acceptance of this is astounding.

At the risk of upsetting others.....
....for me...my Latin holds the only answer;

NOLI Illegitimi Carborundum.
 
Last edited:

Lubos left peg

Well-known member
#47
I know the point you were tryin to make lubo, but to me that is very close to the bone. I just couldn't let it slide. I was born and raised and still live in the six counties and hold and always have held an Irish passport. I'm Irish plain and simple as were the innocent people slaughtered by these scummy bastards. I know you didn't mean to cause offence, but I would be lying to you if I said I wasn't offended by that comment. I know you're a decent bloke, so I won't dwell on it.
Once again deadner I apologise. I created this post through pure anger and rage at what I was watching on the news. It was not my intention to offend anyone, especially someone like yourself who lived and is still living through it. I was brought up in a household in the east end of Glasgow around family members who were in full support of the cause.

I listened to stories from my dad and uncles l and sung the rebs growing up not fully understanding them. But I did understand that the brits were scum and them being in northern Ireland and doing what they were doing was wrong. I cant imagine what it would be like to have to grow up in that environment. That line in my post is not something I believe is right. And I would be happier to delete than piss off people I respect on this forum. 🍀
 
#48
If it was ordinary people that had died on that January day, the courts would never had treated this matter so glibly.
They WOULD be dragging the military over the coals for this.
This is contemptuous behaviour yet again, by the crown and her royal lickspittlers.

But it is not ordinary people, it is Catholics who are being discussed here, people who have the Pope as their spiritual mentor, people who are beneath them, people who are not thought of on the same level as all the rest.

If I had a personal interest in this, if this had affected my family, I would have dealt my own brand of justice.
I don't care one iota, not a scintilla, who may or may not agree with me, and have seen it meted out to others where homework was done, unadulterated and precise, with rectitude duly dispatched.
For me, it was fitting and proper these individuals met their deserts. I have made sure there was no mistake, and the right person/persons were availed with justice suitably served.
NO-ONE WILL DECIDE FOR ME WHAT MY INTERPRETATION OF JUSTICE SHOULD BE, OR HOW IT MAY BE CONVEYED TO ANOTHER.
I do not hold with appointed adjuncts of the law to rule for me and never will, and nor am I afraid to say so.
Ergo, neither will I counter sway on another, or whatever THEY see as their construal view of justice.

We may all have regrets as we journey through life, I do too, but today this level of injustice demands a suitable retort.
Reciprocity at the very least could be a consideration and would not surprise me if repercussions are already aforethought.

The British political classes claim they want a permanent peace, one that's fair to all, but have callously overlooked the depth of feelings involved, in what is tantamount to cold and calculated murder, apportioned to one half of the community.

This cavalier and blatant partiality might see a new beginning that will not bode well and one no-one wanted.... ever again.
It may burgeon a tangible anger, taking root, feeding a creation emboldened and nurtured by today's outcome. This was a gamble too far, and one that was conducted under the sword of Damocles.
'Whitewash' is a well worn term of all things corrupt, but Irish Catholics are used to this by now.
The Real question is how many more whitewashes will they stand before Northern Ireland is consumed in bitter recriminations again.


Today, there is an added advantage for those who may take up the violent option to right the wrongs of so many years ago. An advantage that they never had then, pushing for a fairer deal of human and civil rights. The internet, mobile phones and VPN's will add another dimension to steel their determination and yearning for what is simply justice.
I fear after today's brazen negation and incompassion for the bereaved who only hoped for a satisfactory closure and are still hurting after 47 years.
I feel for them and their pain and disappointment, but mostly for what may result from this.
Things have been on a knife edge recently where factions from both sides have been simmering with distrust, notwithstanding the recent objects claimed to be found in Glasgow.

ONLY THIS TIME, IT WON'T BE SO EASILY TALKED AWAY ON ANOTHER GOOD FRIDAY, OR ANY FUTURE EASTER SUNDAY AGREEMENT.
THE EVENTS OF THE 'SUNDAY' IN QUESTION SHOULD HAVE BEEN AN OPPORTUNITY, ENOUGH TO OFFER SUCCOUR, NULLIFYING THE CONCERNS FOR WHAT MIGHT YET BECOME A FUTURE OF REGRET.


I have been 'lucky' to finance decisions and make 'suitable' plans where it can never come back to me.
Puzo's Godfather doesn't come close to events I have witnessed as a child, and in some ways have become battle hardened.......if not immune to 'certain' experiences.
I am no hero nor a coward, but I will be assuaged if wronged.
I do not think I am better than anyone else, and appreciate my own fallibility. I hope I have been more than fair to others, as I have gone through my life, and have been brought up to respect others irrespective of colour or creed.

One person being found guilty, is an appeasement for the Bloody Sunday atrocities and arrogance in the extreme. It is nothing more than a bone thrown to redirect the dogs.
Almost as if its an itch that needs to be scratched and sorted by this patsy used as their fall guy... give them something; ANYTHING.... 'that'll do them, they'll go away now'........well....... not in my bible it won't.

When I'm at mass I sometimes ask HIM if I'm wrong to seek revenge or vengeance, and if so, then take the life from my lungs as you see fit.
Years ago, my mother would remind me what the good book said, when Jesus stayed Peter's hand as he tried to slay the Romans coming for him and Pilate's 'intercession', saying to Peter, "Justice and revenge belong to my Father and to HIM alone".
My mother would finish saying "leave them to God's justice, in time he will deal out his punishment".
I said that would be fine, but these people don't believe in God and think this life is all there is and therefore, will not be held accountable after death.
I will reprimand them for their wrongs in THIS life.... right now.....while STILL hoping HE does his will on their expiration.
Today's decision is another 'couldn't care less' attitude delivered to a community long looked upon as an easy touch, an unceasing and unremitting unaccountability from those who call themselves public servants of the British Judiciary.
The passive acceptance of this is astounding.

At the risk of upsetting others.....
....for me...my Latin holds the only answer;

NOLI Illegitimi Carborundum.
That's an extremely powerful piece of writing, JC, and there are things there about anger and retribution that need to be said.

Like yourself, JC, there is a different, and often more idealistic, approach inherit within second-generation immigrants.

We adopt some of the habits, features and characteristics of our adopted country, but we still have a direct link to our parents country of origin. Our parents didn't always relocate for the prospect of further prosperity and wealth and often the reasons were political, financial, or even to avoid retribution.

Like Italy, Ireland is complicated by the wide disparity in geographical opinions north and south, east and west.

There were many "blood" feuds that started in the aftermath of The Uprising and Rebellion, due to the british requisitioning land, cattle and materials and making gifts of them to more sympathetic citizens. That changed the dynamics, especially when folk went to get their stuff back and were told by the title holders: "No". As the new title holders were now also the new employers, the neutrals favoured who paid the wages at that time. The biggest problem was the influence of the Church. Priests were very much the most prominent folk, particularly in small towns and villages. In those days, the honour could be bought. It was not always a calling, much more a calculated career move.

This affected hundreds of thousands of people over the length and breadth of Ireland and families had to migrate as a direct consequence of these feuds.

It appears as though I've gone way off-topic here, but it is relevant.

There are many Irish families in Scotland who were forced here due to the enforced effects of famine. There was a second-wave of families who were forced here by the domestic disputes over property, land and material.

Not many of these families came solely by choice.

Ironically, it is only in this last 100-years that people of Irish origin are showing real signs of solidarity. The Church is still a presence and an influence, but people are more politically motivated and have greater access to news and media. The citizens of Cork can now see and hear what is happening in Dublin and Belfast. They do not get scattered pieces of disinformation and dogma.

We are told by the native Scots that we should "go home", they even sing songs about it.

Some of us did, some of our families went back to lay claim to what was rightfully theirs in the first place. More will follow when the political landscape in the UK becomes clearer.

I believe in anger and I believe in justice, JC. I can't condone retribution, as in many cases - due to the old feuds, it would be a case of Green-on-green and we have to try and mend these old fences, not kick them down even more.

What happened in Ballymurphy, Derry and countless other places throughout the whole of Ireland deserves true, fair, and equal justice. ALL those responsible for murder should be held to account: footsoldiers, generals, majors and politicians.

The citizens of Derry and the families of the murdered won't receive justice in this world, but we have to find ways to ensure that these events will never occur again.

There is a very real chance (in this current political stalemate) that the desperate orange dogs in the North will become more volatile and reactive. This impending prosecution of ONE british paratrooper has the potential to become one big political football and will potentially be the spark that blows the powder keg.

We must stand united, but we cannot be drawn into further hostility. The biggest bloody nose we can give them is by working on a unified stance towards: ONE IRELAND CONSISTING OF 32 COUNTIES.

This prosecution is not an attempt to procure justice, it is a blatant attempt to cause chaos. How else would they choose to prosecute only ONE attacker.

They want to ramp up our ire as an excuse to invoke hard borders and military personnel. It is a deliberate political strategy to provoke violence.

That is how the psyche of the british works.

Deflect. Divide. Conquer.
 

The Deadner

Well-known member
#49
Once again deadner I apologise. I created this post through pure anger and rage at what I was watching on the news. It was not my intention to offend anyone, especially someone like yourself who lived and is still living through it. I was brought up in a household in the east end of Glasgow around family members who were in full support of the cause.

I listened to stories from my dad and uncles l and sung the rebs growing up not fully understanding them. But I did understand that the brits were scum and them being in northern Ireland and doing what they were doing was wrong. I cant imagine what it would be like to have to grow up in that environment. That line in my post is not something I believe is right. And I would be happier to delete than piss off people I respect on this forum. 🍀
Fair enough lubo. No need to delete anything. There's very few things that annoy me in life, but that's one of them. But you've explained yourself so that's fair enough for me.
 
M

Maria

Guest
#50
SP my brother were a para at the time and he knew many things were wrong and some of the guys wanted to shoot catholics.
Many times during the miners strike he would say where is the army, this is worse than a "Banned Civil Rights March"
He were a catholic but a young aggressive hothead, he nearly joined uo with the FNLA in Angola but seen sense.
MY POINT of topic, say you had a march in an English town and all the marchers were wanting were the vote for the local Parish, Council and Burgh elections. Access to the same housing as those over the river. The authorities deployed the local Yeomanary and militia.
Result ...... Many deaths.???!
People would say that used to happen 200 hundred years ago would never happen now.
Many people in abroad on shore visits would ask "What extra civil rights the catholics want"
I would just say "they want the vote". Americans were horrified at that white folk in their own country did not have equal status.
Told blacks and coloureds in West Africa and South Africa that a country run like the Boers/Afrikans discriminated against whites over creed.
OUP, DUP, RUC and the 'B' Specials would have killed Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela for wanting the vote.

Your brother a Para? How come that doesnt surprise me TT. 🤣
 

The Deadner

Well-known member
#51
There's some very powerful comments on here, so I thought I'd give my tuppence worth.
I feel no different about this revelation that there is only one Brit being charged over Bloody Sunday than if there were twenty charged. Simply because I didn't expect anyone to be held responsible.
You see, you become hardened to this shit as the years go on. I've spoken about this stuff on here before and I know I'm probably at the risk of repeating myself.
As a child I have seen and experienced some of the worst shit you could imagine. I've seen gun battles, bombs going off, mortar attacks etc. As a child.
No child should have to see that, but I did. And what it has done to me is make me hardened to some of the worst atrocities that happens in the world today. It doesn't take a fidge out of me. You just see it and realise how brutal or barbaric it is and a few days later you forget about it.
I read a stat somewhere recently that over 80% of adults who grew up during the troubles suffer from ptsd, they just don't know it. I'm probably one of them.
Anyway back to Bloody Sunday. The Brits have been doing the same shit as long as they have existed and have always got away with it. I've been at funerals where they have battered innocent mourners simply because the deceased was a republican. None of this stuff gets reported.
Where I live there have been numerous people shot by Brits, but they always seem to get away with it. The key is, they drop the terrorist word. That's the get outta jail card. I could go off on a tangent about that too, but maybe another day.
So don't be so shocked about this outcome, and don't be surprised when this one individual gets off due to insufficient evidence or ill health or whatever bullshit excuse they come up with. I'm well used to it at this stage.
As far as the retribution aspect of it, my father always taught me never to seek revenge, for in his words "that makes you as bad as the perpetrater".
I've tried to live to this motto as much as I could, but I would be a hypocrite if I said I have.
Anyway, unfortunately for the families of the innocent victims of Bloody Sunday, they're not going to get the justice they deserve.
 
M

Maria

Guest
#53
There's some very powerful comments on here, so I thought I'd give my tuppence worth.
I feel no different about this revelation that there is only one Brit being charged over Bloody Sunday than if there were twenty charged. Simply because I didn't expect anyone to be held responsible.
You see, you become hardened to this shit as the years go on. I've spoken about this stuff on here before and I know I'm probably at the risk of repeating myself.
As a child I have seen and experienced some of the worst shit you could imagine. I've seen gun battles, bombs going off, mortar attacks etc. As a child.
No child should have to see that, but I did. And what it has done to me is make me hardened to some of the worst atrocities that happens in the world today. It doesn't take a fidge out of me. You just see it and realise how brutal or barbaric it is and a few days later you forget about it.
I read a stat somewhere recently that over 80% of adults who grew up during the troubles suffer from ptsd, they just don't know it. I'm probably one of them.
Anyway back to Bloody Sunday. The Brits have been doing the same shit as long as they have existed and have always got away with it. I've been at funerals where they have battered innocent mourners simply because the deceased was a republican. None of this stuff gets reported.
Where I live there have been numerous people shot by Brits, but they always seem to get away with it. The key is, they drop the terrorist word. That's the get outta jail card. I could go off on a tangent about that too, but maybe another day.
So don't be so shocked about this outcome, and don't be surprised when this one individual gets off due to insufficient evidence or ill health or whatever bullshit excuse they come up with. I'm well used to it at this stage.
As far as the retribution aspect of it, my father always taught me never to seek revenge, for in his words "that makes you as bad as the perpetrater".
I've tried to live to this motto as much as I could, but I would be a hypocrite if I said I have.
Anyway, unfortunately for the families of the innocent victims of Bloody Sunday, they're not going to get the justice they deserve.
They drop the terrorist card

As powerful as

Guantanamo. No rights. Nothing.

Life means little and nothing in the hands of madmen
 

Thai Tommy

Well-known member
#55
Your brother a Para? How come that doesnt surprise me TT. 🤣
For what it is worth he is my older brother, in his 70's and joined before the troubles. Owing to a growing problem where one leg were growing quicker than the other. He had his good leg put in a plaster cast on and off until his legs stopped growning.
He could no longer sprint but became good at long distance running. Being called stumpy he got into fightS a lot and up in front of a court. A relation who worked in the army carreers office in Hamilton, got him signed up into the paras after his apprenticeship were finished in 1966. He wanted to prove he were 100%, not slightly handicapped.
But no doubt that will not suprise you either
 

Richybhoy

Well-known member
#56
I remember seeing something about Paras having a party to celebrate the murder of two young Belfast joyriders.(late 80s early 90s ?) Two young people executed by the Parachute Regiment for joyriding. The photos showed a cardboard cutout of a Vauxhall. The text around it was a play on words from an advertising campaign. Words to the effect, The Vauxhall Cavalier, Built by Robots, Driven by joy riders, stopped by X company. That shows the mentality of these British "heroes". The deaths of a young woman and young man are to be mocked while the murderers get drunk and party to celebrate their evil deeds. Truly despicable murdering bastards, Britains finest.....
Rich
 

Thai Tommy

Well-known member
#57
Richyboy.
There are a code of silence in any militiary unit. My brother even now is careful with me what he says. But, in the 1988 he told me about when he were on a patrol (70's) overlooking a catholic area they heard shots. A distinctive crack the 7.62 (SLR) gives to the similar calibre AK47, or the smaller M16.
They stopped an Ausin Maxi with two RUC guys who were part time UDR, but, you "MUST" be in regiment uniform to be issused with the SLR. These coppers were in civvies. In the platoon were two scottish protestants, two scottish catholIcs the rest were English and Welsh. A big barney ensued that the two prods wanted to let them go, my brother were adamant they be taken back to barracks. The English officer called it in, it went up the line and came back let them go. Arguments of whose side you on. My brother said by the weekend in motherwell bars they will know we are letting the RUC take pot shots at republicans. He knew down there more guys would take up arms against him.
Andy McNab said if he had been born a catholic there in Belfast he would have been in the IRA. The red tab officers knew what were going on "Wink, wink" yet somehow they are blameless. Bollocks?
 

Thai Tommy

Well-known member
#58
I remember seeing something about Paras having a party to celebrate the murder of two young Belfast joyriders.(late 80s early 90s ?) Two young people executed by the Parachute Regiment for joyriding. The photos showed a cardboard cutout of a Vauxhall. The text around it was a play on words from an advertising campaign. Words to the effect, The Vauxhall Cavalier, Built by Robots, Driven by joy riders, stopped by X company. That shows the mentality of these British "heroes". The deaths of a young woman and young man are to be mocked while the murderers get drunk and party to celebrate their evil deeds. Truly despicable murdering bastards, Britains finest.....
Rich
I remember that they failed to stop aT a roadblock and allegedly tried to run down a para, striking him in the leg (lie). To help their story one para had his thigh battered with a rifle butt to create bruising.
A para later broke silence on the killings?? Outcome?? Daresay the report got lost. Anybody else remember that double murder
 

Thai Tommy

Well-known member
#60
Now that you mention it, I do remember the story about the soldier getting a leg injury to back up their false story, well remembered man.
Rich
I think a documentary was made about this double murder. World in Action possibly.
Rich
Sometimes guys in their mid 60's remember the past. I could tell stories that only people who where there at the time would believe. You cannot explain noise and smells, grit in the eyes, taste in the mouth and how you feel. You needed to be there.
To people who think wary of me because I became a freemason. Up to you.
I could never be a brother in Scotland, but to have Sikhs, Hindus, catholics and COE in my mother lodge. No orange FM lodge would let my Asian brothers to join. I stopped before Templars since that is only white Christians.
I could not leave behind those non-christians who had made me so welcome in a lower degree.
Do not critisise or pigeon hole me.
I am a catholic with buddhist sympathies. Believe nobody has more time on this earth than alloted by one god.
I South America I were held up by gunman in Conception, been in mini buses running road blocks in Sieera Leone. Could even go back to Ghana when Flight Lt Lawrence a son of a Scottish Papa took over the country.
Maria you do not know me, those without sin cast the first stone
 
Top