Coronavirus

First this a debate worth having but not on this thread I feel.
However if people can go to pubs and watch football, students can get crammed into residences, if this dictatorial government make political decisions wrapped up in the moral high ground of public health then to allow professional sport, that is integral to this economy , should be allowed a limited spectator return.
Having just returned from Spain I am in quarantine. This is basically house arrest with not s even space for physical exercise. If this is not a political decision to keep the people here then your analysis is different from mine. And when you question the rational you get the response, these are the rules just do it. Some democracy.
If you miss the subtlety I am leading the revolution
Happy for these posts to be moved out of Celtic chat, WC.
HH

Look I know this is a divisive subject so before we go on I don't want this turning into some angry exchange, I have no interest in falling out with you or anybody else over this so can we agree to keep things civil ;)(y)

First off every decision a government makes is a political decision so I don't really get your point when you say they're trying to wrap up political decisions in the moral high ground of public health. They are a government, every decision they make is political, there is an unprecedented public health crisis, trying to implement measures to minimise that crisis is not trying to claim the moral high ground it's their duty as a responsible government.

I'll ask you this Lmcbhoy......

Should a government take steps to stem the tide of a deadly pandemic or sit back do nothing and watch the death toll of their citizens rise into the tens of thousands?

Is it dictatorial to take certain steps to stem the tide of a deadly pandemic or is it a unfortunate necessity to protect the health and lives of the population?

Is there a greater risk of increased infection rates by having thousands more people than there are currently using public transport, going to pubs, using shared toilet facilities etc.?

Would a limited spectator return to stadiums (likely a couple of hundred at most even less at stadiums with a smaller capacity) make that much difference to the economics of either the club or society after you take into account the additional costs of opening up the stadium, paying for policing, stewards, turnstile staff, kiosk staff etc.?

Should education be cancelled until there's a vaccine and if not should all those attending and mixing with hundreds of others at college and university go back to their homes in every corner of the country when they could possibly be positive for Covid?

Does people's desire to go on holiday outweigh the need to protect the health and lives of others?

Is it unreasonable to ask those who made a conscious decision to go on holiday during a global pandemic and who knew the rules in advance to quarantine when they come home to keep others safe?

You mention democracy......democracy in essence means 'power of the people' and right now far more people are in favour of these restrictions being in place than not, they may not like them, they may rightly think they are a curb on our freedoms but they still think they are necessary to protect lives.

None of us are enjoying this mate, we're all missing our families and our normal lives before Covid, nobody is saying living under these restrictions isn't hard or that they don't curb our freedoms but we are in the middle of a global pandemic that is killing hundreds of thousands of people and we have a collective responsibility as a society to take the necessary steps and make some small sacrifices to limit the loss of life as much as we can.

Is not getting to go to the fitbaw that big a sacrifice in the grand scheme of things?

HH (y)
 
Look I know this is a divisive subject so before we go on I don't want this turning into some angry exchange, I have no interest in falling out with you or anybody else over this so can we agree to keep things civil ;)(y)

First off every decision a government makes is a political decision so I don't really get your point when you say they're trying to wrap up political decisions in the moral high ground of public health. They are a government, every decision they make is political, there is an unprecedented public health crisis, trying to implement measures to minimise that crisis is not trying to claim the moral high ground it's their duty as a responsible government.

I'll ask you this Lmcbhoy......

Should a government take steps to stem the tide of a deadly pandemic or sit back do nothing and watch the death toll of their citizens rise into the tens of thousands?

Is it dictatorial to take certain steps to stem the tide of a deadly pandemic or is it a unfortunate necessity to protect the health and lives of the population?

Is there a greater risk of increased infection rates by having thousands more people than there are currently using public transport, going to pubs, using shared toilet facilities etc.?

Would a limited spectator return to stadiums (likely a couple of hundred at most even less at stadiums with a smaller capacity) make that much difference to the economics of either the club or society after you take into account the additional costs of opening up the stadium, paying for policing, stewards, turnstile staff, kiosk staff etc.?

Should education be cancelled until there's a vaccine and if not should all those attending and mixing with hundreds of others at college and university go back to their homes in every corner of the country when they could possibly be positive for Covid?

Does people's desire to go on holiday outweigh the need to protect the health and lives of others?

Is it unreasonable to ask those who made a conscious decision to go on holiday during a global pandemic and who knew the rules in advance to quarantine when they come home to keep others safe?

You mention democracy......democracy in essence means 'power of the people' and right now far more people are in favour of these restrictions being in place than not, they may not like them, they may rightly think they are a curb on our freedoms but they still think they are necessary to protect lives.

None of us are enjoying this mate, we're all missing our families and our normal lives before Covid, nobody is saying living under these restrictions isn't hard or that they don't curb our freedoms but we are in the middle of a global pandemic that is killing hundreds of thousands of people and we have a collective responsibility as a society to take the necessary steps and make some small sacrifices to limit the loss of life as much as we can.

Is not getting to go to the fitbaw that big a sacrifice in the grand scheme of things?

HH (y)

What do we do when they don't find a vaccine, is my question? The very nature of this sort of virus is to change and adapt, like the flu. Hence the reason the flu injection hasn't cured the flu. It may be the same with covid. We are good friends with a doctor. She is a oncologist consultant so obviously this isn't her field but she says that the consensus amongst her colleagues is that a vaccine will never really work. She says over time they believe the covid strain will weaken itself, for its own survival. Now how long that takes she doesn't know. But how long will we accept our civil liberties being taken away from us? 1 year, 3 years, 10 years. There will come a point when governments can't look after everyone. So then what?
 
What do we do when they don't find a vaccine, is my question? The very nature of this sort of virus is to change and adapt, like the flu. Hence the reason the flu injection hasn't cured the flu. It may be the same with covid. We are good friends with a doctor. She is a oncologist consultant so obviously this isn't her field but she says that the consensus amongst her colleagues is that a vaccine will never really work. She says over time they believe the covid strain will weaken itself, for its own survival. Now how long that takes she doesn't know. But how long will we accept our civil liberties being taken away from us? 1 year, 3 years, 10 years. There will come a point when governments can't look after everyone. So then what?

I don't have the answer to that Lubo but, not dismissing what yer doctor friend has said, the majority of the virologists and epidemiologists you hear discussing this still seem hopeful that a vaccine will be found so in the short to medium term at least, sticking with these restrictions is probably the best approach.

We're in uncharted territory here mate and there are no easy answers but we should do as much as we can for as long as we can to protect as many lives as possible and give these people a chance to get us all out of this horrific situation.
 
What do we do when they don't find a vaccine, is my question? The very nature of this sort of virus is to change and adapt, like the flu. Hence the reason the flu injection hasn't cured the flu. It may be the same with covid. We are good friends with a doctor. She is a oncologist consultant so obviously this isn't her field but she says that the consensus amongst her colleagues is that a vaccine will never really work. She says over time they believe the covid strain will weaken itself, for its own survival. Now how long that takes she doesn't know. But how long will we accept our civil liberties being taken away from us? 1 year, 3 years, 10 years. There will come a point when governments can't look after everyone. So then what?
Weel all be robotised by that time...doin whatever they want us to......
 
Not name dropping but seeing as it's my wife I will. She's the deputy head of biomedical science for the health trust here in shropshire.
A vaccine appears likely but is probably 12 months to 18 months away for the wealthy and more for the majority on NHS, by which time, it will be a developed strain.
This is more than likely an ongoing issue where we all have to change everything. Working from home will be all year round for office based jobs and education for 12 years and above. From Autumn to Spring we will be confined to homes or close to it bar essential workers. Schools will continue for under 12's as they are a necessity for economy and for childcare everything else as much as possible will go remote. They are already looking at IT support for kids to be educated from home.
There will have to be massive changes in industries but those working outdoors will be fine with basic distancing. The spread is an indoor issue almost entirely, unless you are still hugging your neighbour or crammed in in outdoor spaces. Governments already all know this, they are buying time to adapt.
Getting to football? It will happen if football finds a safe way. But it's not exactly a priority seeing as it isn't in any way important. 300 fans? 1000 fans? Scotland is looking at a sticking plaster for a sport that needs surgery.
They need to think outside the box. Football as a spectator sport as it was for thousands crammed into grounds is as good as over, unless individual fans can prevent infection. Someone will find a way to do that. But how long til a NASA style helmet and suit is available in green and white hoops?
 
Schools opening I get. Football not happening I get. Uni's going back now I don't.

They aren't attending lectures, they are sitting in their rooms doing it via zoom. So could be done from Bellshill to Budapest from home.
This is £600 plus a month to rent student accommodation a pop in Scotland, to rent a room with five to a flat packed on top of each other in block after block of student flats never mind halls in City after City and Uni and college towns in between. Down in London thats double. Then associated student poulation boosts to economy - The tuition fees, student loans etc etc.
And thats before the international students pay there multiples of thousands (the real reason). This is as an economical decision to proceed now. Tertiary education is an industry now.
Celtic park need not be open, schools could and should if at all possible to educate and allow parents to work..if safe, though thats questionable.
Uni's have remote options they could be carrying out now. To ask them to go back under fear of losing spots and discouraging deferrals is about money and a lot of it.

In all honesty mate if it were up to me Uni's and colleges wouldn't be going back for the very reasons we're seeing with them now but it's not up to me and I'm not the one under the immense political and societal pressure to allow education to continue while simultaneously keeping a deadly virus at bay.

I agree that economics are at play here but I also think it's a far more complex situation that goes beyond the economics argument. Aye there are students learning and studying subjects who could easily study from home but there are also tens of thousands of students in college and uni studying certain subjects where studying and learning remotely just isn't feasible. What happens to them?

They can't attend college or uni to study. Many of the jobs some worked to fund themselves during their studies are gone. Their chances of gaining alternative employment with no grades, an employment market in free fall and having to compete for what jobs are left with the thousands who've already been made unemployed due to this crisis is virtually zero and the ability for government to subsidise them through this crisis is economically impossible to sustain.

The Scottish government wanted to introduce blended learning where school pupils and students would take it in turns to alternate between attending classes and working from home to limit how many people were mixing at any one time but opposition parties, press, media, colleges, universities and parents weren't satisfied with that and made such a song and dance about how it was a betrayal of students and so inherently bad for education that the government had to ditch it and this is the result. Both should be blamed for that failure, the Scottish government for caving to the mob and the mob for refusing to engage with the idea for various selfish, economic and political reasons!

Like I said earlier it's a difficult balancing act that comes down to society's priorities and people attending education trumps people attending the fitbaw.

HH Niall (y)
 
I think football has no place in this debate as I mentioned in a previous post, other than it needs to find a way itself to get fans back to games. Government have other priorities so I'm certainly not disagreeing with you there.

'Aye there are students learning and studying subjects who could easily study from home but there are also tens of thousands of students in college and uni studying certain subjects where studying and learning remotely just isn't feasible. What happens to them?'

What's happening now? We have to find a way. This isn't a temporary thing this is here for a good while. Harsh as it is it's no tougher than the other adults making their way, these are not kids, they are not schoolchildren, We can't bang on with stockpiling young adults into education and student accommodation because their course can't be done remotely. Mothball until a solution is found.

'They can't attend college or uni to study. Many of the jobs some worked to fund themselves during their studies are gone.'

Without saying ‘diddums’ It's a hard life but it's changing. Those same jobs to prop up education are some people’s entire livelihood not just an addition to rent money or to supplement student loans, they are having to cope.

The Scottish government wanted to introduce blended learning where school pupils and students would take it in turns to alternate between attending classes and working from home to limit how many people were mixing at any one time but opposition parties, press, media, colleges, universities and parents weren't satisfied with that and made such a song and dance about how it was a betrayal of students and so inherently bad for education that the government had to ditch it and this is the result. Both should be blamed for that failure, the Scottish government for caving to the mob and the mob for refusing to engage with the idea for various selfish, economic and political reasons!

100% Andy, shame on all of them except for one proviso, it was a start of a necessary debate on both sides and a lack of the actual reality framing it.
Perhaps now when people realise a vaccine is the only solution and miles off, then that whole premise of an exchange of views may now re-open and somewhere amongst all of that, parents, students, politicians and epidemiologists, some real harsh truth of the reality of all of this might find all parties sit down and find a consensus or a working group that puts 'now' behind them and looks to a future where we live with this, possibly for many years.

We could be living with an Autumn to Spring shutdown for many years, Student lawyers can train from home online as can their qualified conterparts work that way. For plumbers they have to find a way to let them in our homes and find a way to teach the new generation. Scientists the same. Pining for the past or the unfairness of the now makes no difference. We can show empathy and sympathy but it's all missing the point. Students are at Uni now for one reason and one reason only. The economy.
 
Rushed though vaccines, that’s how the zombie epidemic starts, you don’t want to be one of the 1st to try it out, stock up on the drink “mountain dew” as apparently it’s a cure for a bite 👍🤣

Fuck how will we tell the difference between the Sevco zombies and the dodgy vaccine zombies?

Double fuck......will it even matter as both would be an ugly ravenous plague ridden horde leaving nothing but destruction in their wake as they march on in their endless quest for BRAINS!!!!! 🧟‍♂️🧟‍♀️ :eek:
 
I think football has no place in this debate as I mentioned in a previous post, other than it needs to find a way itself to get fans back to games. Government have other priorities so I'm certainly not disagreeing with you there.

'Aye there are students learning and studying subjects who could easily study from home but there are also tens of thousands of students in college and uni studying certain subjects where studying and learning remotely just isn't feasible. What happens to them?'

What's happening now? We have to find a way. This isn't a temporary thing this is here for a good while. Harsh as it is it's no tougher than the other adults making their way, these are not kids, they are not schoolchildren, We can't bang on with stockpiling young adults into education and student accommodation because their course can't be done remotely. Mothball until a solution is found.

'They can't attend college or uni to study. Many of the jobs some worked to fund themselves during their studies are gone.'

Without saying ‘diddums’ It's a hard life but it's changing. Those same jobs to prop up education are some people’s entire livelihood not just an addition to rent money or to supplement student loans, they are having to cope.

The Scottish government wanted to introduce blended learning where school pupils and students would take it in turns to alternate between attending classes and working from home to limit how many people were mixing at any one time but opposition parties, press, media, colleges, universities and parents weren't satisfied with that and made such a song and dance about how it was a betrayal of students and so inherently bad for education that the government had to ditch it and this is the result. Both should be blamed for that failure, the Scottish government for caving to the mob and the mob for refusing to engage with the idea for various selfish, economic and political reasons!

100% Andy, shame on all of them except for one proviso, it was a start of a necessary debate on both sides and a lack of the actual reality framing it.
Perhaps now when people realise a vaccine is the only solution and miles off, then that whole premise of an exchange of views may now re-open and somewhere amongst all of that, parents, students, politicians and epidemiologists, some real harsh truth of the reality of all of this might find all parties sit down and find a consensus or a working group that puts 'now' behind them and looks to a future where we live with this, possibly for many years.

We could be living with an Autumn to Spring shutdown for many years, Student lawyers can train from home online as can their qualified conterparts work that way. For plumbers they have to find a way to let them in our homes and find a way to teach the new generation. Scientists the same. Pining for the past or the unfairness of the now makes no difference. We can show empathy and sympathy but it's all missing the point. Students are at Uni now for one reason and one reason only. The economy.


I think football has no place in this debate as I mentioned in a previous post, other than it needs to find a way itself to get fans back to games. Government have other priorities so I'm certainly not disagreeing with you there.

Agree 100%.

What's happening now? We have to find a way. This isn't a temporary thing this is here for a good while. Harsh as it is it's no tougher than the other adults making their way, these are not kids, they are not schoolchildren, We can't bang on with stockpiling young adults into education and student accommodation because their course can't be done remotely. Mothball until a solution is found.

Agree we do have to find a way but saying that and achieving that are 2 different things and that's the dilemma for both government and society right now, like I said no easy answers and that's why government ultimately made the decision, rightly or wrongly, to send them back. Mothball until a solution is found? Like you said this could be around for a while with no vaccine available, possibly years, so if there are no students graduating from unis or colleges then who will fill the positions when there's a shortage of nurses, doctors, engineers, mechanics, scientists etc. because all require practical supervised class based teaching? You're right they're not kids but they're also not adults with years of work experience behind them either so they're immediately at a disadvantage when competing for jobs against those who are.

Without saying ‘diddums’ It's a hard life but it's changing. Those same jobs to prop up education are some people’s entire livelihood not just an addition to rent money or to supplement student loans, they are having to cope.

No doubt and their struggles during this are no less difficult or important than that of students or anyone else, in fact they're the people in most need of help as they are some of the lowest paid in society and unlike students they have families to support, rent/mortgages and other bills to pay. I see these struggles everyday where I live, both me and my family have lived these same struggles at one time or another and they were there long before Covid 19 was a thing.

100% Andy, shame on all of them except for one proviso, it was a start of a necessary debate on both sides and a lack of the actual reality framing it. Perhaps now when people realise a vaccine is the only solution and miles off, then that whole premise of an exchange of views may now re-open and somewhere amongst all of that, parents, students, politicians and epidemiologists, some real harsh truth of the reality of all of this might find all parties sit down and find a consensus or a working group that puts 'now' behind them and looks to a future where we live with this, possibly for many years.


Fully agree with the sentiment of what you say here but instead of all concerned getting round the table to debate this and come up with agreed solutions, too many in politics, the press, media and certain educational establishments are not interested in finding a consensus but are more interested in using it for political gain and point scoring. The reality of the situation doesn't enter into it for some up here, for some of them at least ideology trumps everything including public health and education!

We could be living with an Autumn to Spring shutdown for many years, Student lawyers can train from home online as can their qualified conterparts work that way. For plumbers they have to find a way to let them in our homes and find a way to teach the new generation. Scientists the same. Pining for the past or the unfairness of the now makes no difference. We can show empathy and sympathy but it's all missing the point. Students are at Uni now for one reason and one reason only. The economy.

Like I mentioned above while there are many who can study and train from home there are many others who can't. A science student can't set up a lab in their bedroom anymore than someone studying electrical engineering can strip down a ventilation system in their maw's living room. Got to disagree on the last part of your comment here, aye economics is playing a part in this no doubt about that but again like I mentioned before there is more at play here than just economics and if we keep framing this debate like that's all it's about then those solutions we spoke about earlier will remain beyond our reach.

HH (y)
 
I think football has no place in this debate as I mentioned in a previous post, other than it needs to find a way itself to get fans back to games. Government have other priorities so I'm certainly not disagreeing with you there.

Agree 100%.

What's happening now? We have to find a way. This isn't a temporary thing this is here for a good while. Harsh as it is it's no tougher than the other adults making their way, these are not kids, they are not schoolchildren, We can't bang on with stockpiling young adults into education and student accommodation because their course can't be done remotely. Mothball until a solution is found.

Agree we do have to find a way but saying that and achieving that are 2 different things and that's the dilemma for both government and society right now, like I said no easy answers and that's why government ultimately made the decision, rightly or wrongly, to send them back. Mothball until a solution is found? Like you said this could be around for a while with no vaccine available, possibly years, so if there are no students graduating from unis or colleges then who will fill the positions when there's a shortage of nurses, doctors, engineers, mechanics, scientists etc. because all require practical supervised class based teaching? You're right they're not kids but they're also not adults with years of work experience behind them either so they're immediately at a disadvantage when competing for jobs against those who are.

Without saying ‘diddums’ It's a hard life but it's changing. Those same jobs to prop up education are some people’s entire livelihood not just an addition to rent money or to supplement student loans, they are having to cope.

No doubt and their struggles during this are no less difficult or important than that of students or anyone else, in fact they're the people in most need of help as they are some of the lowest paid in society and unlike students they have families to support, rent/mortgages and other bills to pay. I see these struggles everyday where I live, both me and my family have lived these same struggles at one time or another and they were there long before Covid 19 was a thing.

100% Andy, shame on all of them except for one proviso, it was a start of a necessary debate on both sides and a lack of the actual reality framing it. Perhaps now when people realise a vaccine is the only solution and miles off, then that whole premise of an exchange of views may now re-open and somewhere amongst all of that, parents, students, politicians and epidemiologists, some real harsh truth of the reality of all of this might find all parties sit down and find a consensus or a working group that puts 'now' behind them and looks to a future where we live with this, possibly for many years.


Fully agree with the sentiment of what you say here but instead of all concerned getting round the table to debate this and come up with agreed solutions, too many in politics, the press, media and certain educational establishments are not interested in finding a consensus but are more interested in using it for political gain and point scoring. The reality of the situation doesn't enter into it for some up here, for some of them at least ideology trumps everything including public health and education!

We could be living with an Autumn to Spring shutdown for many years, Student lawyers can train from home online as can their qualified conterparts work that way. For plumbers they have to find a way to let them in our homes and find a way to teach the new generation. Scientists the same. Pining for the past or the unfairness of the now makes no difference. We can show empathy and sympathy but it's all missing the point. Students are at Uni now for one reason and one reason only. The economy.

Like I mentioned above while there are many who can study and train from home there are many others who can't. A science student can't set up a lab in their bedroom anymore than someone studying electrical engineering can strip down a ventilation system in their maw's living room. Got to disagree on the last part of your comment here, aye economics is playing a part in this no doubt about that but again like I mentioned before there is more at play here than just economics and if we keep framing this debate like that's all it's about then those solutions we spoke about earlier will remain beyond our reach.

HH (y)
Some excellent points there and much food for thought. My overarching concern I think in all of this is moving students now, at another peak while much else is locking down again. There appears a ‘the show must go on right now’ attitude and the risk in the living quarters particularly must be high. Dangerously so.

For the sciences is there scope to remain at home, with practical work done on a rota basis, socially distanced as many hospital labs are at present?
If the direct work experience placements are part of the education, then can that be done by travel funding rather than having to live there, could the non-practical courses remain away for the vast majority of the year. Could the then dormant building lecture halls etc be put to another use, rented or sold to fund these changes. There is a lot of out the box thinking done in workplace environments where experimentation and ongoing training is part of everyday life, many have used lockdown to find solutions before getting staff back in, and even when they do come back it is in limited numbers spread over the week. Could that have been done before asking students to leave bubbles and risk their health?

One thing I find strange. I work in homelessness. In March we had the call to have ‘everyone’ off the streets. We had empty halls of residence and student flats all around yet we weren’t allowed to use them. We had to ask closed hotels to open and house the customers in individual rooms and en suite only- because we were told to have these individuals coming from all over and living together was dangerous. That’s why I feel this is a business decision, why else would the horse go before the cart when it comes to students. No plan in place re living conditions and adapting courses, just a case of get there put on a mask, wash your hands and ‘as you were’ yet it was different and sensible when you think of it for homeless customers of mine to live in self-contained placements, even food was brought to roo, they were texted at certain times where they could leave and when they came back, we even gave them the phones.

Anyway I guess it’s done now and now we just await the consequences - seeing as the debate as you said will go nowhere when political point scoring is more important than finding solutions

Hail Hail🍀
 
Look I know this is a divisive subject so before we go on I don't want this turning into some angry exchange, I have no interest in falling out with you or anybody else over this so can we agree to keep things civil ;)(y)

First off every decision a government makes is a political decision so I don't really get your point when you say they're trying to wrap up political decisions in the moral high ground of public health. They are a government, every decision they make is political, there is an unprecedented public health crisis, trying to implement measures to minimise that crisis is not trying to claim the moral high ground it's their duty as a responsible government.

I'll ask you this Lmcbhoy......

Should a government take steps to stem the tide of a deadly pandemic or sit back do nothing and watch the death toll of their citizens rise into the tens of thousands?

Is it dictatorial to take certain steps to stem the tide of a deadly pandemic or is it a unfortunate necessity to protect the health and lives of the population?

Is there a greater risk of increased infection rates by having thousands more people than there are currently using public transport, going to pubs, using shared toilet facilities etc.?

Would a limited spectator return to stadiums (likely a couple of hundred at most even less at stadiums with a smaller capacity) make that much difference to the economics of either the club or society after you take into account the additional costs of opening up the stadium, paying for policing, stewards, turnstile staff, kiosk staff etc.?

Should education be cancelled until there's a vaccine and if not should all those attending and mixing with hundreds of others at college and university go back to their homes in every corner of the country when they could possibly be positive for Covid?

Does people's desire to go on holiday outweigh the need to protect the health and lives of others?

Is it unreasonable to ask those who made a conscious decision to go on holiday during a global pandemic and who knew the rules in advance to quarantine when they come home to keep others safe?

You mention democracy......democracy in essence means 'power of the people' and right now far more people are in favour of these restrictions being in place than not, they may not like them, they may rightly think they are a curb on our freedoms but they still think they are necessary to protect lives.

None of us are enjoying this mate, we're all missing our families and our normal lives before Covid, nobody is saying living under these restrictions isn't hard or that they don't curb our freedoms but we are in the middle of a global pandemic that is killing hundreds of thousands of people and we have a collective responsibility as a society to take the necessary steps and make some small sacrifices to limit the loss of life as much as we can.

Is not getting to go to the fitbaw that big a sacrifice in the grand scheme of things?

HH (y)
Good day Shadow.
Absolutely agree not in the mode of angry exchanges and totally respect the many and reasonable points you make.
The football element was the catalyst to this discussion but if I can't see football I will live with it.
My fundamental beef is that we have a government that is, in my opinion, using a genuine health emergency to push their own ideas. They don't have to pay for it just hold out their hands to london.
If they had to deal with the whole picture including the economy they would be making different decisions. They are loving being in control without responsibility.
I asked both Jason Leitch and my msp why can I not take an hours exercise when in quarantine.
Response was basically here are the rules , follow them.
Sorry for me that's dictating not engaging.
At the start I did think Sturgeon was doing a good job but now the decisions are at best hap hazard. E.g. What a surprise they let students back and cases rise.Then after the horse has bolted they try to sort it.
Anyway, I come on here for the football chat and don't usually get involved in other stuff but I am pretty peed off with all this hence my reaction.
Shadow I wish you well, stay safe
Regards and respect
HH
 

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