First this a debate worth having but not on this thread I feel.
However if people can go to pubs and watch football, students can get crammed into residences, if this dictatorial government make political decisions wrapped up in the moral high ground of public health then to allow professional sport, that is integral to this economy , should be allowed a limited spectator return.
Having just returned from Spain I am in quarantine. This is basically house arrest with not s even space for physical exercise. If this is not a political decision to keep the people here then your analysis is different from mine. And when you question the rational you get the response, these are the rules just do it. Some democracy.
If you miss the subtlety I am leading the revolution
Happy for these posts to be moved out of Celtic chat, WC.
HH
Look I know this is a divisive subject so before we go on I don't want this turning into some angry exchange, I have no interest in falling out with you or anybody else over this so can we agree to keep things civil
First off every decision a government makes is a political decision so I don't really get your point when you say they're trying to wrap up political decisions in the moral high ground of public health. They are a government, every decision they make is political, there is an unprecedented public health crisis, trying to implement measures to minimise that crisis is not trying to claim the moral high ground it's their duty as a responsible government.
I'll ask you this Lmcbhoy......
Should a government take steps to stem the tide of a deadly pandemic or sit back do nothing and watch the death toll of their citizens rise into the tens of thousands?
Is it dictatorial to take certain steps to stem the tide of a deadly pandemic or is it a unfortunate necessity to protect the health and lives of the population?
Is there a greater risk of increased infection rates by having thousands more people than there are currently using public transport, going to pubs, using shared toilet facilities etc.?
Would a limited spectator return to stadiums (likely a couple of hundred at most even less at stadiums with a smaller capacity) make that much difference to the economics of either the club or society after you take into account the additional costs of opening up the stadium, paying for policing, stewards, turnstile staff, kiosk staff etc.?
Should education be cancelled until there's a vaccine and if not should all those attending and mixing with hundreds of others at college and university go back to their homes in every corner of the country when they could possibly be positive for Covid?
Does people's desire to go on holiday outweigh the need to protect the health and lives of others?
Is it unreasonable to ask those who made a conscious decision to go on holiday during a global pandemic and who knew the rules in advance to quarantine when they come home to keep others safe?
You mention democracy......democracy in essence means 'power of the people' and right now far more people are in favour of these restrictions being in place than not, they may not like them, they may rightly think they are a curb on our freedoms but they still think they are necessary to protect lives.
None of us are enjoying this mate, we're all missing our families and our normal lives before Covid, nobody is saying living under these restrictions isn't hard or that they don't curb our freedoms but we are in the middle of a global pandemic that is killing hundreds of thousands of people and we have a collective responsibility as a society to take the necessary steps and make some small sacrifices to limit the loss of life as much as we can.
Is not getting to go to the fitbaw that big a sacrifice in the grand scheme of things?
HH
What do we do when they don't find a vaccine, is my question? The very nature of this sort of virus is to change and adapt, like the flu. Hence the reason the flu injection hasn't cured the flu. It may be the same with covid. We are good friends with a doctor. She is a oncologist consultant so obviously this isn't her field but she says that the consensus amongst her colleagues is that a vaccine will never really work. She says over time they believe the covid strain will weaken itself, for its own survival. Now how long that takes she doesn't know. But how long will we accept our civil liberties being taken away from us? 1 year, 3 years, 10 years. There will come a point when governments can't look after everyone. So then what?
Weel all be robotised by that time...doin whatever they want us to......What do we do when they don't find a vaccine, is my question? The very nature of this sort of virus is to change and adapt, like the flu. Hence the reason the flu injection hasn't cured the flu. It may be the same with covid. We are good friends with a doctor. She is a oncologist consultant so obviously this isn't her field but she says that the consensus amongst her colleagues is that a vaccine will never really work. She says over time they believe the covid strain will weaken itself, for its own survival. Now how long that takes she doesn't know. But how long will we accept our civil liberties being taken away from us? 1 year, 3 years, 10 years. There will come a point when governments can't look after everyone. So then what?
Aye seen it over the nose but no the moothPandemic has proved one thing ,,,,the amount of dumb cnts who don't know how to wear a mask
Schools opening I get. Football not happening I get. Uni's going back now I don't.
They aren't attending lectures, they are sitting in their rooms doing it via zoom. So could be done from Bellshill to Budapest from home.
This is £600 plus a month to rent student accommodation a pop in Scotland, to rent a room with five to a flat packed on top of each other in block after block of student flats never mind halls in City after City and Uni and college towns in between. Down in London thats double. Then associated student poulation boosts to economy - The tuition fees, student loans etc etc.
And thats before the international students pay there multiples of thousands (the real reason). This is as an economical decision to proceed now. Tertiary education is an industry now.
Celtic park need not be open, schools could and should if at all possible to educate and allow parents to work..if safe, though thats questionable.
Uni's have remote options they could be carrying out now. To ask them to go back under fear of losing spots and discouraging deferrals is about money and a lot of it.
Rushed though vaccines, that’s how the zombie epidemic starts, you don’t want to be one of the 1st to try it out, stock up on the drink “mountain dew” as apparently it’s a cure for a bite
I think football has no place in this debate as I mentioned in a previous post, other than it needs to find a way itself to get fans back to games. Government have other priorities so I'm certainly not disagreeing with you there.
'Aye there are students learning and studying subjects who could easily study from home but there are also tens of thousands of students in college and uni studying certain subjects where studying and learning remotely just isn't feasible. What happens to them?'
What's happening now? We have to find a way. This isn't a temporary thing this is here for a good while. Harsh as it is it's no tougher than the other adults making their way, these are not kids, they are not schoolchildren, We can't bang on with stockpiling young adults into education and student accommodation because their course can't be done remotely. Mothball until a solution is found.
'They can't attend college or uni to study. Many of the jobs some worked to fund themselves during their studies are gone.'
Without saying ‘diddums’ It's a hard life but it's changing. Those same jobs to prop up education are some people’s entire livelihood not just an addition to rent money or to supplement student loans, they are having to cope.
The Scottish government wanted to introduce blended learning where school pupils and students would take it in turns to alternate between attending classes and working from home to limit how many people were mixing at any one time but opposition parties, press, media, colleges, universities and parents weren't satisfied with that and made such a song and dance about how it was a betrayal of students and so inherently bad for education that the government had to ditch it and this is the result. Both should be blamed for that failure, the Scottish government for caving to the mob and the mob for refusing to engage with the idea for various selfish, economic and political reasons!
100% Andy, shame on all of them except for one proviso, it was a start of a necessary debate on both sides and a lack of the actual reality framing it.
Perhaps now when people realise a vaccine is the only solution and miles off, then that whole premise of an exchange of views may now re-open and somewhere amongst all of that, parents, students, politicians and epidemiologists, some real harsh truth of the reality of all of this might find all parties sit down and find a consensus or a working group that puts 'now' behind them and looks to a future where we live with this, possibly for many years.
We could be living with an Autumn to Spring shutdown for many years, Student lawyers can train from home online as can their qualified conterparts work that way. For plumbers they have to find a way to let them in our homes and find a way to teach the new generation. Scientists the same. Pining for the past or the unfairness of the now makes no difference. We can show empathy and sympathy but it's all missing the point. Students are at Uni now for one reason and one reason only. The economy.
Some excellent points there and much food for thought. My overarching concern I think in all of this is moving students now, at another peak while much else is locking down again. There appears a ‘the show must go on right now’ attitude and the risk in the living quarters particularly must be high. Dangerously so.I think football has no place in this debate as I mentioned in a previous post, other than it needs to find a way itself to get fans back to games. Government have other priorities so I'm certainly not disagreeing with you there.
Agree 100%.
What's happening now? We have to find a way. This isn't a temporary thing this is here for a good while. Harsh as it is it's no tougher than the other adults making their way, these are not kids, they are not schoolchildren, We can't bang on with stockpiling young adults into education and student accommodation because their course can't be done remotely. Mothball until a solution is found.
Agree we do have to find a way but saying that and achieving that are 2 different things and that's the dilemma for both government and society right now, like I said no easy answers and that's why government ultimately made the decision, rightly or wrongly, to send them back. Mothball until a solution is found? Like you said this could be around for a while with no vaccine available, possibly years, so if there are no students graduating from unis or colleges then who will fill the positions when there's a shortage of nurses, doctors, engineers, mechanics, scientists etc. because all require practical supervised class based teaching? You're right they're not kids but they're also not adults with years of work experience behind them either so they're immediately at a disadvantage when competing for jobs against those who are.
Without saying ‘diddums’ It's a hard life but it's changing. Those same jobs to prop up education are some people’s entire livelihood not just an addition to rent money or to supplement student loans, they are having to cope.
No doubt and their struggles during this are no less difficult or important than that of students or anyone else, in fact they're the people in most need of help as they are some of the lowest paid in society and unlike students they have families to support, rent/mortgages and other bills to pay. I see these struggles everyday where I live, both me and my family have lived these same struggles at one time or another and they were there long before Covid 19 was a thing.
100% Andy, shame on all of them except for one proviso, it was a start of a necessary debate on both sides and a lack of the actual reality framing it. Perhaps now when people realise a vaccine is the only solution and miles off, then that whole premise of an exchange of views may now re-open and somewhere amongst all of that, parents, students, politicians and epidemiologists, some real harsh truth of the reality of all of this might find all parties sit down and find a consensus or a working group that puts 'now' behind them and looks to a future where we live with this, possibly for many years.
Fully agree with the sentiment of what you say here but instead of all concerned getting round the table to debate this and come up with agreed solutions, too many in politics, the press, media and certain educational establishments are not interested in finding a consensus but are more interested in using it for political gain and point scoring. The reality of the situation doesn't enter into it for some up here, for some of them at least ideology trumps everything including public health and education!
We could be living with an Autumn to Spring shutdown for many years, Student lawyers can train from home online as can their qualified conterparts work that way. For plumbers they have to find a way to let them in our homes and find a way to teach the new generation. Scientists the same. Pining for the past or the unfairness of the now makes no difference. We can show empathy and sympathy but it's all missing the point. Students are at Uni now for one reason and one reason only. The economy.
Like I mentioned above while there are many who can study and train from home there are many others who can't. A science student can't set up a lab in their bedroom anymore than someone studying electrical engineering can strip down a ventilation system in their maw's living room. Got to disagree on the last part of your comment here, aye economics is playing a part in this no doubt about that but again like I mentioned before there is more at play here than just economics and if we keep framing this debate like that's all it's about then those solutions we spoke about earlier will remain beyond our reach.
HH
Thought they went efter BRIANS the thick cnutsFuck how will we tell the difference between the Sevco zombies and the dodgy vaccine zombies?
Double fuck......will it even matter as both would be an ugly ravenous plague ridden horde leaving nothing but destruction in their wake as they march on in their endless quest for BRAINS!!!!!
Good day Shadow.Look I know this is a divisive subject so before we go on I don't want this turning into some angry exchange, I have no interest in falling out with you or anybody else over this so can we agree to keep things civil
First off every decision a government makes is a political decision so I don't really get your point when you say they're trying to wrap up political decisions in the moral high ground of public health. They are a government, every decision they make is political, there is an unprecedented public health crisis, trying to implement measures to minimise that crisis is not trying to claim the moral high ground it's their duty as a responsible government.
I'll ask you this Lmcbhoy......
Should a government take steps to stem the tide of a deadly pandemic or sit back do nothing and watch the death toll of their citizens rise into the tens of thousands?
Is it dictatorial to take certain steps to stem the tide of a deadly pandemic or is it a unfortunate necessity to protect the health and lives of the population?
Is there a greater risk of increased infection rates by having thousands more people than there are currently using public transport, going to pubs, using shared toilet facilities etc.?
Would a limited spectator return to stadiums (likely a couple of hundred at most even less at stadiums with a smaller capacity) make that much difference to the economics of either the club or society after you take into account the additional costs of opening up the stadium, paying for policing, stewards, turnstile staff, kiosk staff etc.?
Should education be cancelled until there's a vaccine and if not should all those attending and mixing with hundreds of others at college and university go back to their homes in every corner of the country when they could possibly be positive for Covid?
Does people's desire to go on holiday outweigh the need to protect the health and lives of others?
Is it unreasonable to ask those who made a conscious decision to go on holiday during a global pandemic and who knew the rules in advance to quarantine when they come home to keep others safe?
You mention democracy......democracy in essence means 'power of the people' and right now far more people are in favour of these restrictions being in place than not, they may not like them, they may rightly think they are a curb on our freedoms but they still think they are necessary to protect lives.
None of us are enjoying this mate, we're all missing our families and our normal lives before Covid, nobody is saying living under these restrictions isn't hard or that they don't curb our freedoms but we are in the middle of a global pandemic that is killing hundreds of thousands of people and we have a collective responsibility as a society to take the necessary steps and make some small sacrifices to limit the loss of life as much as we can.
Is not getting to go to the fitbaw that big a sacrifice in the grand scheme of things?
HH
because they're a commie Country, who decieve and deflect what actually goes on there to the rest of the World?Just seen that in Russia no one has contracted the coronavirus to date and even although it shares a border with China? Why is the ?
They get Covidnachock99 that’s a bad conebecause they're a commie Country, who decieve and deflect what actually goes on there to the rest of the World?
That would be my guess!