Have we reached an impasse?

[Shadow2]

On Friday following the defeat to Valencia I made a few points about how something's got to give at Celtic if we have any ambition of improving on the European stage......

''The bottom line is BR's favoured tactics of playing out from the back will not work in Europe with this group of players so we either need to ditch it or sign players who are capable of pulling it off.''

''Something's got to give here, either the tactics on the pitch have to change or the tactics in the boardroom have to because right now it doesn't matter who plays whether it's Gordon or Bain, Boyata, Simunovic, or Ajer, Toljan or Lustig, KT or Izzy, Brown or McGregor we always end up with the same outcome whenever teams press us.''

Now today Brendan has hinted that some of the current squad have reached their level and that level falls short of what's required to make inroads in Europe, he alludes to the fact that if we want to make progress on the European front then it will require investing in a better standard of player and that means a change in the club's transfer policy. And there's the rub, since Brendan doesn't look like budging on his philosophy of how we should play and Lawell and the board look in NO way interested in changing their approach when it comes to player recruitment have we finally reached an impasse between manager and board that can't be overcome?

Just before anyone comments I would ask that this doesn't become yet another 'we can't compete financially' or 'the board are more interested in the balance sheet' debate as we all have different views on that which have been discussed at length already. What I'm really asking here is what do you think is the driving factor behind our shortcomings in Europe? Is it Brendan's refusal to change his tactics on the pitch that are the root of our problems when it comes to competing in Europe or is it the board's transfer policy that makes it impossible for BR and the bhoys to compete? Also is there a way round this problem that both parties can agree on or have we reached an impasse where one or the other has to give ground and change their approach.

HH bhoys and ghirls.

 

[Benignus]

On Friday following the defeat to Valencia I made a few points about how something's got to give at Celtic if we have any ambition of improving on the European stage......

''The bottom line is BR's favoured tactics of playing out from the back will not work in Europe with this group of players so we either need to ditch it or sign players who are capable of pulling it off.''

''Something's got to give here, either the tactics on the pitch have to change or the tactics in the boardroom have to because right now it doesn't matter who plays whether it's Gordon or Bain, Boyata, Simunovic, or Ajer, Toljan or Lustig, KT or Izzy, Brown or McGregor we always end up with the same outcome whenever teams press us.''

Now today Brendan has hinted that some of the current squad have reached their level and that level falls short of what's required to make inroads in Europe, he alludes to the fact that if we want to make progress on the European front then it will require investing in a better standard of player and that means a change in the club's transfer policy. And there's the rub, since Brendan doesn't look like budging on his philosophy of how we should play and Lawell and the board look in NO way interested in changing their approach when it comes to player recruitment have we finally reached an impasse between manager and board that can't be overcome?

Just before anyone comments I would ask that this doesn't become yet another 'we can't compete financially' or 'the board are more interested in the balance sheet' debate as we all have different views on that which have been discussed at length already. What I'm really asking here is what do you think is the driving factor behind our shortcomings in Europe? Is it Brendan's refusal to change his tactics on the pitch that are the root of our problems when it comes to competing in Europe or is it the board's transfer policy that makes it impossible for BR and the bhoys to compete.

HH bhoys and ghirls.

Good thread Andybhoy, quick reply b4 game starts, Brendan isn't for changing in my opinion, so we go with what we have, In my opinion the best back 4 we can use is the German lad at right back, Benkovic and an on form Boyata in the middle, with KT at left back and Bain in goal.
As you say, a stand off between Brendan and the board may be in the post, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it, enjoy the game mate.

 

[Shadow2]

Good thread Andybhoy, quick reply b4 game starts, Brendan isn't for changing in my opinion, so we go with what we have, In my opinion the best back 4 we can use is the German lad at right back, Benkovic and an on form Boyata in the middle, with KT at left back and Bain in goal.
As you say, a stand off between Brendan and the board may be in the post, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it, enjoy the game mate.

Fuck didn't realise that was the game starting lol. Cheers for the heads up there Benignus

 

[TET]

Personally, I don't understand why the team cant have various styles of play for different options.
The standard of Scottish football is such that if we had a team capable of winning a European trophy I still think we would need mots of luck to raise the standard occasionally to compete against teams playing at a higher standard more regularly.

I dont think foreign mercenaries are necessarily suited to the Scottish game. And vice versa I dont think Scottish players are of high enough quality to have a team that can compete with foreign players at the business end of big matches well enough to get much further than Celtic currently compete.

The weather and culture of Scottish football doesnt suit players who have lived most of their life in generally hot countries with clear blue skies.

Scandanavian countries and countries with equally poor weather with similar cultures might be decent options for the team, but mostly those countries are not really high quality footballer producers in the modern world.

I would love to see Celtic competing at quarter final levels and above regularly in Europe. But unless we can produce Scottish players capable of doing that then i suspect the mercenaries will never be great value for money or loyal enough to stick around when different options for their careers appear.

Rodgers isnt really covering himself with glory with his stubborness to learn good defensive structures. But if he wins the league every year and gets decent income added from europe then im quite happy to be Scottish champions every year.

Would love to have a powerful european side. But Scottish football standard generally isnt good preparation for european football, since the stronger we are in Scotland the less likely we are to get high quality defensive practive which would be needed for europe.

 

[TheGreatOne]

On Friday following the defeat to Valencia I made a few points about how something's got to give at Celtic if we have any ambition of improving on the European stage......

''The bottom line is BR's favoured tactics of playing out from the back will not work in Europe with this group of players so we either need to ditch it or sign players who are capable of pulling it off.''

''Something's got to give here, either the tactics on the pitch have to change or the tactics in the boardroom have to because right now it doesn't matter who plays whether it's Gordon or Bain, Boyata, Simunovic, or Ajer, Toljan or Lustig, KT or Izzy, Brown or McGregor we always end up with the same outcome whenever teams press us.''

Now today Brendan has hinted that some of the current squad have reached their level and that level falls short of what's required to make inroads in Europe, he alludes to the fact that if we want to make progress on the European front then it will require investing in a better standard of player and that means a change in the club's transfer policy. And there's the rub, since Brendan doesn't look like budging on his philosophy of how we should play and Lawell and the board look in NO way interested in changing their approach when it comes to player recruitment have we finally reached an impasse between manager and board that can't be overcome?

Just before anyone comments I would ask that this doesn't become yet another 'we can't compete financially' or 'the board are more interested in the balance sheet' debate as we all have different views on that which have been discussed at length already. What I'm really asking here is what do you think is the driving factor behind our shortcomings in Europe? Is it Brendan's refusal to change his tactics on the pitch that are the root of our problems when it comes to competing in Europe or is it the board's transfer policy that makes it impossible for BR and the bhoys to compete? Also is there a way round this problem that both parties can agree on or have we reached an impasse where one or the other has to give ground and change their approach.

HH bhoys and ghirls.

It’s hard not to refer back to previous discussions because I feel they go hand in hand.

The main thing for me is that how we competed in Europe before will always be our level. We can’t sustain anything further.

We can have those runs in Europe and have a team to do so as some of this team are better than previous.

So for me, it’s BR inability to change tactics. If he requires more money for better players he has to move to a team within a bigger league.

 

[Millsy]

Is it BR's tactics or the Board's tightfistedness that has us as also rans in Europe ?

Yes !

 

[BenLynch29]

What I'm really asking here is what do you think is the driving factor behind our shortcomings in Europe? Is it Brendan's refusal to change his tactics on the pitch that are the root of our problems when it comes to competing in Europe or is it the board's transfer policy that makes it impossible for BR and the bhoys to compete?

HH bhoys and ghirls.

 

[The Shamrock]

I still think the impasse lies in the boardroom between Lawwell and Rodgers seeing the future of the club/business through different eyes and neither completely trusting the other.

 

[JimMc]

Good post.
To be fair BR clearly relaxed the absolute rules today, Boyata was (rightly) volleying them out without a thought when ever thought necessary.

Likely not a change of heart, just a rare freeedom to do the 'obvious when needed' on account of the 'pitch'

When many if not most were knocking Boyata a year and more back, personally always thought he was a decent defender, and it was BR's rigid play out system that made him look clumsy more often than not, as it does imo with Jozo

 

[Shadow2]

Is it BR's tactics or the Board's tightfistedness that has us as also rans in Europe ?

Yes !

View attachment 1450

Tbh that's my own personal view, it's a mixture of both.

As much as I detest the board's transfer policy, not just the lack of funding but also the strict criteria of having to buy young potential, develop them, then sell on etc I also think BR needs to rethink his own approach and play to the strengths of the players he has at his disposal in the here and now.

This current group of players clearly struggle with playing out from the back but BR continues on with it regardless even though he himself recognises it's causing major problems. Surely until he convinces the board of the merits of changing their transfer strategy (I know probably won't happen) then he has to be more pragmatic and realistic on how he sets his team up in these games.

It's OK having a philosophy on how the game should be played but when you don't have the players to make that work then you've got to find another way.

HH.

 

[michael duffy]

Is it BR's tactics or the Board's tightfistedness that has us as also rans in Europe ?

Yes !

and a yes from me to Millsy! HH

 

[lcafiero]

I would agree that it is probably both, but I would say that opening the pursestrings would be more of a solution.

As a newcomer, forgive me if this observation is a bit naive. And for the most part, I am thinking aloud here, so bear with me.

However, it appears that we're already outclassing the rest of the league in Scotland this season. If we were to sign some even higher-quality players at a steeper price in order to compete in Europe, wouldn't Celtic run away with the league even further? And how would that affect the league, with everyone else in the league essentially playing for second place?

I'm not saying that's a deal-breaker, but I think it opens the door to another question: Should Celtic explore playing in another, more Europe-based league, instead of where they are now -- if success in Europe is most important?

My own view from across the ocean is that I am content with Celtic being the gold standard of Scottish football, although I also would like to see Celtic win Europe again in my lifetime (and I'm counting on a couple of more decades).

 

[boab1916]

I would agree that it is probably both, but I would say that opening the pursestrings would be more of a solution.

As a newcomer, forgive me if this observation is a bit naive. And for the most part, I am thinking aloud here, so bear with me.

However, it appears that we're already outclassing the rest of the league in Scotland this season. If we were to sign some even higher-quality players at a steeper price in order to compete in Europe, wouldn't Celtic run away with the league even further? And how would that affect the league, with everyone else in the league essentially playing for second place?

I'm not saying that's a deal-breaker, but I think it opens the door to another question: Should Celtic explore playing in another, more Europe-based league, instead of where they are now -- if success in Europe is most important?

My own view from across the ocean is that I am content with Celtic being the gold standard of Scottish football, although I also would like to see Celtic win Europe again in my lifetime (and I'm counting on a couple of more decades).

This title will be our 50th and they would be demented if we were to put the decade stars on the top 5x10 and of course our gold one for European Cup 1967, this would freak them out. 6 stars and they are behind again in every visuals.

 

[michael duffy]

the difficulty is selling the scottish game to potential signings,no problem with selling our club to them,but the weather,class of opposition,playin the same teams 5,6,7 times a season,plastic pitches,it's tough, but hey ho, geeza nurra stella!! HH COYBIG!!!!

 

[BenLynch29]

I would agree that it is probably both, but I would say that opening the pursestrings would be more of a solution.

As a newcomer, forgive me if this observation is a bit naive. And for the most part, I am thinking aloud here, so bear with me.

However, it appears that we're already outclassing the rest of the league in Scotland this season. If we were to sign some even higher-quality players at a steeper price in order to compete in Europe, wouldn't Celtic run away with the league even further? And how would that affect the league, with everyone else in the league essentially playing for second place?

I'm not saying that's a deal-breaker, but I think it opens the door to another question: Should Celtic explore playing in another, more Europe-based league, instead of where they are now -- if success in Europe is most important?

My own view from across the ocean is that I am content with Celtic being the gold standard of Scottish football, although I also would like to see Celtic win Europe again in my lifetime (and I'm counting on a couple of more decades).

Lots of questions in here.

If Celtic were to sign better players and run away with the league (p.s. we do this already now), it wouldn’t be any different than France (PSG), Germany (Bayern Munich), Italy (Juventus), and most smaller countries where there are 1 or at most 2 decent clubs the garner 2-5x more turnover than the next closest club. Spain only has 3 clubs competing for the title, and England is the true outlier due to the more even distribution of their television income.

Also, it will be damn near impossible for Celtic to get into a different league short of a complete rework of league structures across all of Europe (to which UEFA is opposed). The only viable option would be going to England in the same way a few Welsh clubs have entered the English League. But even if the logistics could be worked out (e.g. where in the league structure do we enter? Will there be a fee to move leagues? Etc) there’s no way any of the teams there would want to allow Celtic into the EPL. The top teams don’t want any more competition for European places, and the lower level teams don’t want another strong club in the league potentially pushing them down to the Championship and costing them £100m annually. It’ll never happen... Celtic’s only escape route would be either the creation of a stand alone Super League (and no guarantee we would be included) or the creation of the fabled Atlantic League featuring top teams from across the North Atlantic not in the top 5 leagues.

 

[BenLynch29]

the difficulty is selling the scottish game to potential signings,no problem with selling our club to them,but the weather,class of opposition,playin the same teams 5,6,7 times a season,plastic pitches,it's tough, but hey ho, geeza nurra stella!! HH COYBIG!!!!

This is another excuse IMO. Several other leagues only have 10-12 teams (Swiss league, Austrian League, etc), and that doesn’t hurt them from recruiting good players or making runs in Europa and ocassionally Champions League. The plastic pitches are an issue, but again that’s overblown IMO. The MLS has several artificial pitches, and that hasn’t prevented Beckham, Rooney, Ibrahimovic, Schweinsteiger, and others from signing in that league.

There are some players who don’t want to come to Scotland for one reason or another, and I don’t want to pretend that it’s not an issue. But for every one who rules it out, there are 5 more guys like Dembele, Weah, Larsson, Burke, Edouard, Van Djik, etc who want an opportunity to prove themselves on the big stage of Europe. Finding quality players who want to play for us isn’t an issue despite the ocassional setback from guys like Timothy Castigne who want to stay in a top 5 league.

 

[michael duffy]

over the hill players topping up their pension,refused to play on plastic pitches in the mls,ibrahimovic,thierry henry's career ended after sustaining an injury on a plastic pitch,do teams,in the swiss and austrian leagues play each other a minimum of 4 times a season,when the likes of vvd,wanyama and dembele signed,it was the lure of CL qualification but with the likelyhood of that becoming increasingly difficult, players will think twice,dembele could'nt get away quick enough when we failed to qualify.

 

[TET]

This is another excuse IMO. Several other leagues only have 10-12 teams (Swiss league, Austrian League, etc), and that doesn’t hurt them from recruiting good players or making runs in Europa and ocassionally Champions League. The plastic pitches are an issue, but again that’s overblown IMO. The MLS has several artificial pitches, and that hasn’t prevented Beckham, Rooney, Ibrahimovic, Schweinsteiger, and others from signing in that league.

There are some players who don’t want to come to Scotland for one reason or another, and I don’t want to pretend that it’s not an issue. But for every one who rules it out, there are 5 more guys like Dembele, Weah, Larsson, Burke, Edouard, Van Djik, etc who want an opportunity to prove themselves on the big stage of Europe. Finding quality players who want to play for us isn’t an issue despite the ocassional setback from guys like Timothy Castigne who want to stay in a top 5 league.

Attracting them to the club is one thing, holding onto them is another, and thats the current model anyway. buy them sell them at profit couple seasons.

I dont think thats gonna make us better team in europe.

1 most of them are projects
2 its now harder to get into europe with the extra premilimary games
3 they mostly want more wages to come here than they would staying on constinent whcih pushes up our wages higher and higher each season
4 They end up being able to disrupt the team with tantrums and thus destablise the whole set up and get sold for less than they are worth, and then fans say why was he sold without a better replacement.

Mercenaries may be necessary to stay at top in Scotland but the mercenaries not only want big wages they force big wages across the board meaing next batch of mercenaries want higher wages and thus ends up higher wages across the board.

Its the wages thats the problem

to attract them here they need to be getting offered at least same if not more than they being offered elesewhere, depending where they have other offers.

On top of that the premium for buying quality players is in serious inflation territory.

And to be getting to quarter finals you need certain amount of the top 100 players in your squad or else you arent likely to be quarter final team.

To break into the knock out stages of champions league regularly the club would need to be compteing with the automatic entry clubs wage wise which is prety unlikely unless we can produce our own players much the same as Ajax or salzburg types

 

[TET]

This is another excuse IMO. Several other leagues only have 10-12 teams (Swiss league, Austrian League, etc), and that doesn’t hurt them from recruiting good players or making runs in Europa and ocassionally Champions League. The plastic pitches are an issue, but again that’s overblown IMO. The MLS has several artificial pitches, and that hasn’t prevented Beckham, Rooney, Ibrahimovic, Schweinsteiger, and others from signing in that league.

There are some players who don’t want to come to Scotland for one reason or another, and I don’t want to pretend that it’s not an issue. But for every one who rules it out, there are 5 more guys like Dembele, Weah, Larsson, Burke, Edouard, Van Djik, etc who want an opportunity to prove themselves on the big stage of Europe. Finding quality players who want to play for us isn’t an issue despite the ocassional setback from guys like Timothy Castigne who want to stay in a top 5 league.

We have some of thes players you mention already at club and we got gubbed by Valencia.

Attracting players to Celtic aint impossible its often the wages that we cant afford since it has knock on effect across the squad

 

[TET]

Attracting them to the club is one thing, holding onto them is another, and thats the current model anyway. buy them sell them at profit couple seasons.

I dont think thats gonna make us better team in europe.

1 most of them are projects
2 its now harder to get into europe with the extra premilimary games
3 they mostly want more wages to come here than they would staying on constinent whcih pushes up our wages higher and higher each season
4 They end up being able to disrupt the team with tantrums and thus destablise the whole set up and get sold for less than they are worth, and then fans say why was he sold without a better replacement.

Mercenaries may be necessary to stay at top in Scotland but the mercenaries not only want big wages they force big wages across the board meaing next batch of mercenaries want higher wages and thus ends up higher wages across the board.

Its the wages thats the problem

to attract them here they need to be getting offered at least same if not more than they being offered elesewhere, depending where they have other offers.

On top of that the premium for buying quality players is in serious inflation territory.

And to be getting to quarter finals you need certain amount of the top 100 players in your squad or else you arent likely to be quarter final team.

To break into the knock out stages of champions league regularly the club would need to be compteing with the automatic entry clubs wage wise which is prety unlikely unless we can produce our own players much the same as Ajax or salzburg types

Lets just say we offered to buy the entire valencia squad we just played.

How much would that cost?

Would they leave Valencia to come here?

Would they want pay rise to play in cold corrupt scottish league with msm on their case? Would they enjoy the culture, the weather, the level of opposition?

Would they be capable of winning the champions league would the constant depression of playing in this foreign culture effect thier motivation?

Would they be able to raise their game to their current sharpness when they constantly play against dross?