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commodore64
Guest
dingwall haggis is the best
Have we reached an impasse?
- Thread starter Shadow2
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BenLynch29
Well-known member
Well, I can definitely see levels of engagement similar to that of your family. That may be more representative at the moment, BUT (1) it’s still a country of 300m+ people, so even a very small percentage is still a large absolute number, and (2) I would think a lot of that ‘soft’ support would increase engagement if the club were more aggressive in pursuing those supporters. How many of them know about the 19th century roots of the club or the current work of the foundation?
I do also think there is another uniqueness in the American fan in that, with respect to soccer, most people here are either actively or open to supporting multiple clubs. Few people here were ‘born’ into following a certain club. 15 years ago the only time the sport was televised was ocassional MLS matches and the World Cup / Olympics. Since then nearly everyone who now supports a team has basically ‘adopted’ an EPL team (or multiple teams!) to support for one reason or another. But that has transpired for largely artificial reasons - the affinity to the foreign clubs is not strong even if viewership is regular because the support isn’t based on anything concrete. I mean, I remember watching and supporting Everton for a few seasons because Tim Howard (the US national team goalkeeper) played for them. I know I was not alone in that either, and I still pay attention to their scores though I don’t really care one way or the other. The other thing that comes out of this is that the American soccer fan regularly supports multiple teams at once from different leagues. This sounds totally foreign to people that bleed green and white, but people in Boston will support the NE Revolution - their MLS team - and also Liverpool which is owned by the parent company of the Boston Red Sox. Some might even have a small affiliation to another club as well.
But I do think that Celtic support, even among non-expats, is stronger than that of other clubs, and that is down to the Irish heritage / culture, and also down to the charitable ‘more than a club’ roots to the extent that is known about.
I guess what I’m suggesting is that a very large number - easily 7 figures, perhaps even 8 - is open to supporting the club at least on a nominal level, and that engagement is much easier to develop and cement due to the uniqueness of the club. There’s a lot of people that will support the club because of what it stands for, wanting to be part of something bigger and making a positive difference in the world. That’s not something that other clubs are even nominally offering their fans. It’s perhaps much more fun to watch ManU or Chelsea or Real Madrid win trophies with the best players in the world, but it’s much more personally meaningful for people to support a cause, and I think Celtic could ‘convert’ a lot of fans from apathy to active support to potentially even volunteer spokespeople if there was a concerted effort to reach this audience and communicate what the club is all about.
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commodore64
Guest
agree ben, just got to look at the piping community in america, there is a greater untapped potential there
Winter
Well-known member
From what I can see, the SFA has actually been pretty reasonable at accommodating teams (mostly Celtic due to the number of our Euro matches) in rescheduling our fixtures before/after European dates. When we’ve got to play twice a week, which is most weeks, it’s ideal that we have 72 hrs between kick-offs. It’s rare that we don’t have that, and the clubs in EPL actually have it much worse in that regard as the TV companies hold much more power regarding scheduling there due to the money involved. I can distinctly remember both Chelsea and Man United having less than 48 hrs on occasion. Thu/Sat or Sun/Tue fixtures. Or the ever popular Mon/Wed combination, although I think that last one has been eliminated.
As to the competition... there’s nothing Celtic can do about that. But I do think the quality of the league has improved in the last few years. Rangers had an easy route through qualification, but they actually ‘Progrèsed’ to the group stage this year.And Aberdeen haven’t been easy outs in qualification either, though it’s doubtful they will ever make the group stage unless they get their new stadium and all the financial benefits that come with it. Give it a few more years, and I suspect Rangers will be making groups regularly and potentially giving us a good run in the league (by rights they should already be mopping the floor with all the other teams except us due to their resource advantage).
Yes I agree with what you are saying. I'm not saying this is the problem but it's definately part of it. If Celtic have 7 games to play in 21 days and the 5th or 6th game of that schedule is against Valencia after Airdrie in the cup we will struggle 100%. Still, i consider this European campaign a success, getting to the last 32 again against the odds and a whole lot of games played just to get to this stage. English clubs are better compensated to deal with the fixture schedule financially compared to Aberdeen hibs or Kilmarnock although we've seen that when English clubs actually have to qualify they too struggle. Burnley, west ham and any club whose qualification to the group stages isn't handed to them automatically.
BenLynch29
Well-known member
Free haggis?buy into the pub culture, promote every game, invite brewer sponsors, free haggis and neeps, job done
We’re trying to attract supporters, not kill them!
TET
Well-known member
Haggis alright if you never ever examine what its made with. Once that is in the mind I doubt anybody could bring themselves to enjoy that delicacy againFree haggis?
We’re trying to attract supporters, not kill them!
TET
Well-known member
I suppose they could maybe set up a visit Scotalnd and enjoy a tatse of the famous Celtic FC in the hospitality suites. That way they might hook some heavy hitting wealthy potential investors with side business of touring Scotland, visit the land of William Wallace and/or your Scottish/irish ancestors.
Just dont mention the weather ever.
BenLynch29
Well-known member
Heh, not everybody lives by the beach out in California. The weather may be wet and dreary 90% of the time, but it’s not that big of a deal for most people. If it were, your tourism industry would rival that of Siberia!!!
Would also like to point out that winter weather for much of the USA is as bad or worse than Scotland. Buffalo NY and several other places are buried under tens of feet of snow each winter. And a lot of people have to deal with ridiculously cold temps that actually do rival Siberia (remind me someday to tell the story of my eyelids freezing open - true story). So while a winter getaway to Scotland isn’t as attractive as California or Barcelona, it’s still a vast improvement for a lot of people during that part of the year.
But I actually like the idea of having a travel agency book a trip to CP along with a weeks worth of sight seeing throughout the country. Maybe even stay a night or two in that new hotel the club are building along with premium hospitality packages at North American prices. And when it’s all done, get on a bus and go up to St Andrews for some golf (sponsorship opportunity!!!) and a stop at Eden Mill (milk that sponsorship too!!!).
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BenLynch29
Well-known member
True story:
My first visit to Scotland some 15 years ago. We were in Stirling I think and the Highland Games happened to be taking place one day. So we go and do the touristy thing and check it out. It was remarkable for two reasons: (1) the weather was indeed gorgeous that day with lots of sun and no rain, and (2) the event organizers created a ‘new’ event and even changed the ‘normal’ rules to allow anyone to compete and sign up on the spot - even tourists!
It was a haggis eating competition! The prize for winning was a 1.5L bottle of Scotch. I forgot what brand, but it was one of the more well known brands that also by sheer coincidence happened to be sponsoring the entire event.
Anyway, they managed to sucker in 4 participants to eat as much haggis as they could in 20 minutes. The contestant residing closest to Stirling won that day - hailing from some town in Wisconsin, just north of Chicago - and all the other entrants were either American or Australian. The guy from Wisconsin polished off everything they gave to him (I think it was like 3-4 pounds) in less than 5 minutes.
After the event I took it upon myself to learn what haggis is, and I quickly learned why no locals wanted to enter that day!
True story:
My first visit to Scotland some 15 years ago. We were in Stirling I think and the Highland Games happened to be taking place one day. So we go and do the touristy thing and check it out. It was remarkable for two reasons: (1) the weather was indeed gorgeous that day with lots of sun and no rain, and (2) the event organizers created a ‘new’ event and even changed the ‘normal’ rules to allow anyone to compete and sign up on the spot - even tourists!
It was a haggis eating competition! The prize for winning was a 1.5L bottle of Scotch. I forgot what brand, but it was one of the more well known brands that also by sheer coincidence happened to be sponsoring the entire event.
Anyway, they managed to
sucker in 4 participants to eat as much haggis as they could in 20 minutes. The contestant residing closest to Stirling won that day - hailing from some town in Wisconsin, just north of Chicago - and all the other entrants were either American or Australian. The guy from Wisconsin polished off everything they gave to him (I think it was like 3-4 pounds) in less than 5 minutes.
After the event I took it upon myself to learn what haggis is, and I quickly learned why no locals wanted to enter that day!
A wee question Ben, a mate of mine a few years back was talking to me about football in the states, he said why has no one in Boston thought about starting a team for the MLS, maybe calling them Boston Celtic, has basketball and baseball sewn the market up, or could there be room in Boston for such a franchise? Most people in the world know the Celtics Basketball team, and in Baseball the red and white sox, could there be an appetite for a football club in Boston and would the huge Irish/American community buy inyo it?
PS This question is for Icafiero also.
lcafiero
Well-known member
My guess is that there would be some legalities involved due to the similarities of the names Celtic/Celtics, and I would imagine that the basketball team would not be that, um, generous with sharing the name. But I could be wrong.
It would be a great tie-in with the Irish heritage of Boston, to be sure.
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Maria
Guest
Free haggis?
We’re trying to attract supporters, not kill them!
Take it you have never tasted our delicious delicacy then Ben coz its magic. ?
The name of the team is not so important, I'm sure the money men would want to tap in to the Boston Irish dollar, Boston Shamrocks or Boston Clover would do just as well, but my main point was if the people of Boston would show any interest in football.
BenLynch29
Well-known member
I would say based on the evidence they support it very well.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England_Revolution
BenLynch29
Well-known member
I want to come back to this... I do think CelticTV needs broader distribution, but the more I think about this the less ‘free’ makes sense. There’s a not insignificant cost to distribute the channel in terms of compute and network resources, and if we’re talking about increasing viewership by 6, 7, or even 8 figures, that’s a huge increase from current viewership and will necessitate a big investment in the club in the infrastructure.
A better option IMO would be partnering with Amazon Prime, YouTube TV, ESPN+, Netflix, Facebook, or some other service for the rights to show CelticTV (either exclusively or non-exclusively) in America. LAFC partnered with YouTube TV last year at a deal worth a reported $12M over 3 years. Chicago Fire also partnered with ESPN+ with undisclosed terms. I would think CelticTV would be a far more attractive property and the fees Celtic would receive should reflect that. In addition, there are a significant number of subscribers on all of these platforms, so exposure for Celtic would go up by several orders of magnitude while pushing the incremental distribution investment back to their partner (although that would be reflected in the terms of the agreement).
As an aside, I do think there are several things Celtic need to do to improve the quality of the channel:
- Increase quality to 4K or 4K HDR - this is 2019 for cripes sake! And current resolution is maxed out at 720P on live matches and even worse on replay! This needs to get fixed. Would also be nice to see 60 or even 120 FPS similar to what North American sports teams put out on streaming platforms (particularly NHL)
- Subtitles would be a huge help for those unfamiliar with the Scottish accent - several people who have watched matches with me either at work or at home have asked what language Paul and Tom were speaking!
- Change up the prematch and half-time analysis. The current format is better than it was a couple years ago when Summer was hosting, but it’s still not good enough IMO. Some insight explaining to foreign audiences how the opposing team is lining up and their likely game plan would be good prematch, while breaking down what is working vs what is not working with video examples would be good halftime. Like highlighting how a certain player is adapting to the defense and adjust and then beat the strategy that was previewed before the match. Having former players/managers (Larsson, Lenny, Ronny, etc) would be ideal, although not sure how that would go over inside the club if they’re potentially highlighting tactical shortcomings!
TET
Well-known member
I want to come back to this... I do think CelticTV needs broader distribution, but the more I think about this the less ‘free’ makes sense. There’s a not insignificant cost to distribute the channel in terms of compute and network resources, and if we’re talking about increasing viewership by 6, 7, or even 8 figures, that’s a huge increase from current viewership and will necessitate a big investment in the club in the infrastructure.
A better option IMO would be partnering with Amazon Prime, YouTube TV, ESPN+, Netflix, Facebook, or some other service for the rights to show CelticTV (either exclusively or non-exclusively) in America. LAFC partnered with YouTube TV last year at a deal worth a reported $12M over 3 years. Chicago Fire also partnered with ESPN+ with undisclosed terms. I would think CelticTV would be a far more attractive property and the fees Celtic would receive should reflect that. In addition, there are a significant number of subscribers on all of these platforms, so exposure for Celtic would go up by several orders of magnitude while pushing the incremental distribution investment back to their partner (although that would be reflected in the terms of the agreement).
As an aside, I do think there are several things Celtic need to do to improve the quality of the channel:
Anyway, I do think selling the rights for the US market to an existing over-the-too provider would be hugely beneficial both monetarily and in terms of audience size. Short terms and long term.
- Increase quality to 4K or 4K HDR - this is 2019 for cripes sake! And current resolution is maxed out at 720P on live matches and even worse on replay! This needs to get fixed. Would also be nice to see 60 or even 120 FPS similar to what North American sports teams put out on streaming platforms (particularly NHL)
- Subtitles would be a huge help for those unfamiliar with the Scottish accent - several people who have watched matches with me either at work or at home have asked what language Paul and Tom were speaking!
- Change up the prematch and half-time analysis. The current format is better than it was a couple years ago when Summer was hosting, but it’s still not good enough IMO. Some insight explaining to foreign audiences how the opposing team is lining up and their likely game plan would be good prematch, while breaking down what is working vs what is not working with video examples would be good halftime. Like highlighting how a certain player is adapting to the defense and adjust and then beat the strategy that was previewed before the match. Having former players/managers (Larsson, Lenny, Ronny, etc) would be ideal, although not sure how that would go over inside the club if they’re potentially highlighting tactical shortcomings!
Maybe worth emailing the board. Who knows they might not have thought about this option
boab1916
Well-known member
Only thing is the SFAhave rights to Celtic TV and their coverage its on every DVD released, with kind permission from the SFA. They own the football fixtures as the association rules. Would need approval as their would be fees involved, only way Celtic win is to back their side with ads revenue. Also need to get round rights to screen in time zones like the way sky block our highlights until midnight etc. Free to air leads to streaming, great idea but has lots of minefields to examine.
BenLynch29
Well-known member
boab, there’s definitely a lot of issues that would need to be ironed out, but I don’t think any of this would be breaking new ground.
- The league owns the copyright to the league matches and the league cup, while the SFA owns the copyright to the SFA Cup. Likewise UEFA owns the copyright to CL & EL matches, and Celtic itself owns the copyright to all non-match content produced by the club (interviews, behind the scenes, etc). But the rights have already been transferred to Celtic to use under certain terms and conditions, so the club would just need to ensure that selling the regional rights to CelticTV would not violate existing contractual terms with the SPFL, SFA, or UEFA. My guess is that they’re on solid ground though.
- In terms of blackout restrictions, that’s not a big issue IMO because all the streaming providers that currently show live sports in the USA have to deal with it already. It’s a major headache, but one thing that makes this easy is that it would just need to be enforced by country rather than more narrow parameters.
- You bring up another point regarding ad revenue - currently there is no advertising on the platform, even for club sponsors! So moving this to an ad-supported platform increases the value of the platform by orders of magnitude. This is particularly true if we’re talking about Amazon, YouTube (Google), and Facebook, as they have stupid amounts of personal data and sell personalized targeted advertising that is extremely valuable to advertising agencies (eg Mercedes Benz allocating 100% of their budget showing ads to people with incomes of $100K+ or assets of $1m+).
Lastly, one thing that the club have going for them is that the SPFL, by virtue of the fact that international audiences have zero interest in any clubs other than Rangers or Celtic, will always have a challenging time selling rights for the entire league outside of the U.K. And since clubs have the rights to sell their own channels anywhere they want and they get to keep 100% of the revenue for themselves, not being in the EPL or Bundesliga could actually be a strategic advantage for both Celtic & Rangers if they can figure out how to increase the size of their audience. They don’t have to split the income 12 (or 42!) ways, and the price consumers pay is way higher per viewer than what even the EPL is getting overseas. For comparison here, ESPN gets, by a wide margin, the highest rates from cable/satellite companies in the USA; around $5/subscriber/mo. They take all that income and then acquire content rights from teams & leagues. Even an ‘expensive’ content deal nets the league/club less than $1/sub/mo. Compare that to CelticTV at nearly £16/sub/mo (£190/yr), albeit with far lower viewership. If Celtic gets viewership even 5% of the EPL, they’re going to be light years ahead of the average EPL team in terms of income due to the price and the fact that they don’t have to share it with the rest of the league.
