Is Putin manipulatin' western democracy!

michael duffy

Well-known member
The mad thing is MD that even after saying all that I still feel like I'm betraying my working class values by slagging off the Labour Party. I just wish they were the Labour Party I was brought up to believe in and that they weren't so married to the UK as a concept.
In an independent Scotland Andy,Iwould more than likely vot Scottish labour.or a Scottish socialist party
HH Andy.
 

Spherical Planet

Well-known member
The mad thing is MD that even after saying all that I still feel like I'm betraying my working class values by slagging off the Labour Party. I just wish they were the Labour Party I was brought up to believe in and that they weren't so married to the UK as a concept.
Same here, Andy. I dabbled with the YCL and SSP in my youth, but I realised that Labour were the only realistic and viable alternative to the Tories and I learned to adopt their logic and ideology.

That changed during Blairism. The bastards duped us and were no more than a diet Tory party (including the fake wars and atrocities). They killed the party and now it's just a shell of what it should be. I like Corbyn, but I feel he's pushing water up a brae wie that mob in his backbenchers.
 

Andybhoy88

Well-known member
The sad thing is, is that political ideology should never see, colour, creed, or faith.

Political ideology should always serve the people (not peepo) and should be an instrument for fairness and equality.

In a previous post, I mentioned a Labour MP who represented Dundee. It might have seemed a personal piece relating to the individual himself, but the point I was really trying to make was that the major parties have all been bought and sold by their various financial benefactors.

Having spent a good chunk of my youth being an active trade union layperson, I seen first-hand the influence of orangeyness within all the major unions in Scotland and how this influenced nominations within the Scottish Labour Party. God knows, I've had plenty of issues with the SNP down the tears, but I never felt they were beholden to corporate interests or union influence.

I do fear that they may be spending too much time trying to appeal to the majority faith group in this country and that's fine as most of them are alright. It's the braindead fundamentals (and I did mean mentals) that I worry that they're trying to elicit.

These peepo are long gone and it would be wise to just let them become extinct - just like the club they used to folly folly
I agree wholeheartedly that political ideology should never see colour, creed nor faith SP that's why I can't stick this 'Labour served the Catholic community' myth as one......it's just that......a carefully constructed myth to guilt us into voting for them and two......it should never be about serving any particular community anyway it should be about serving all communities equally and fairly, no matter their make-up, without the nod and the wink to certain sections of society saying 'remember we were the ones who looked after your lot, be grateful!'

That said while I'm not a big fan of the Labour Party I'm not some SNP zealot either. There are many things that really bother me about the party and it's hierarchy and they deserved to be criticised for parts of their record on Education, NHS etc. but they are not unique in their failures in these areas and there is some amount of bollocks written and said about them that does need called out at times. I honestly don't think they pander to any side of the divide in Scotland but that's a personal opinion and maybe others see things I don't I don't know.

What I do believe in is Independence though and I don't see any other way to achieve it without them so for now they have my vote but like I said after that all bets are off and my vote would be up for grabs.

HH SP (y)
 

Andybhoy88

Well-known member
In an independent Scotland Andy,Iwould more than likely vot Scottish labour.or a Scottish socialist party
HH Andy.
It's more than likely I would vote similarly to yourself MD but there would have to be major changes in Scottish Labour, not only would they have to return to more traditional Labour values but they would have to drop their cynical and opportunistic 'nod and a wink' politics to both sides of the religious divide in Scotland. It's got to be about a fair and equal society for all and not just about keeping a foot in both camps to maximise their vote share.

HH MD (y)
 

The Shamrock

Well-known member
I agree wholeheartedly that political ideology should never see colour, creed nor faith SP that's why I can't stick this 'Labour served the Catholic community' myth as one......it's just that......a carefully constructed myth to guilt us into voting for them and two......it should never be about serving any particular community anyway it should be about serving all communities equally and fairly, no matter their make-up, without the nod and the wink to certain sections of society saying 'remember we were the ones who looked after your lot, be grateful!'

That said while I'm not a big fan of the Labour Party I'm not some SNP zealot either. There are many things that really bother me about the party and it's hierarchy and they deserved to be criticised for parts of their record on Education, NHS etc. but they are not unique in their failures in these areas and there is some amount of bollocks written and said about them that does need called out at times. I honestly don't think they pander to any side of the divide in Scotland but that's a personal opinion and maybe others see things I don't I don't know.

What I do believe in is Independence though and I don't see any other way to achieve it without them so for now they have my vote but like I said after that all bets are off and my vote would be up for grabs.

HH SP (y)

I think there are a fair few of us of the same mind, Andy as the end justifies the means. Let them win us our freedom but the political landscape has to change before the SNP are allowed to run an independent Scotland.
 

Spherical Planet

Well-known member
It's more than likely I would vote similarly to yourself MD but there would have to be major changes in Scottish Labour, not only would they have to return to more traditional Labour values but they would have to drop their cynical and opportunistic 'nod and a wink' politics to both sides of the religious divide in Scotland. It's got to be about a fair and equal society for all and not just about keeping a foot in both camps to maximise their vote share.

HH MD (y)
Andy, one of my more politically motivated friends happened across a memo from 5-years ago that discussed how Dundee City Council were going to make a land grab around parts of Angus, North Fife and Perth & Kinross.

There is arable land and rich agricultural pickings and I think this would be a feature throughout Scotland if independence were a reality.

The territories of our current regional systems would probably alter quite radically post-independence and that would directly affect how the vote would be distributed.

We would likely end up having to adopt a system not unlike America, where presidential candidates would be elected on a populist, first past the post basis.

It's mental to think of it, but we would effectively be a republic that would have to reflect the population and not regions.
 

Andybhoy88

Well-known member
Same here, Andy. I dabbled with the YCL and SSP in my youth, but I realised that Labour were the only realistic and viable alternative to the Tories and I learned to adopt their logic and ideology.

That changed during Blairism. The bastards duped us and were no more than a diet Tory party (including the fake wars and atrocities). They killed the party and now it's just a shell of what it should be. I like Corbyn, but I feel he's pushing water up a brae wie that mob in his backbenchers.
Same SP......it was vote Labour at all costs to make sure the Tories were kept out but Blairism, the Iraq War and the realisation that it didn't matter who Scotland voted for as it would be the English electorate who would decide who governed us not us turned me away from the party and made my mind up about Independence.

I reckon Corbyn is a good man with values I would be sympathetic to but he dithers and equivocates on too many issues for my liking, half his party are a bunch of Blairite neoliberals that hate him so even if he did get elected they'd bin him straight after they got in and he's got next to no chance of being elected anyway due to England's love of conservatism. I just can't vote for that.

HH SP (y)
 

Spherical Planet

Well-known member
Same SP......it was vote Labour at all costs to make sure the Tories were kept out but Blairism, the Iraq War and the realisation that it didn't matter who Scotland voted for as it would be the English electorate who would decide who governed us not us turned me away from the party and made my mind up about Independence.

I reckon Corbyn is a good man with values I would be sympathetic to but he dithers and equivocates on too many issues for my liking, half his party are a bunch of Blairite neoliberals that hate him so even if he did get elected they'd bin him straight after they got in and he's got next to no chance of being elected anyway due to England's love of conservatism. I just can't vote for that.

HH SP (y)
Corbyn's already being cut adrift and you also see signs of the contemptibles sniffing about for any coalition they can muster.

Corbyn's out regardless of the outcome and would be better off in an activist, independent role within parliament. He may never be king, but he might be kingmaker.
 

Andybhoy88

Well-known member
Andy, one of my more politically motivated friends happened across a memo from 5-years ago that discussed how Dundee City Council were going to make a land grab around parts of Angus, North Fife and Perth & Kinross.

There is arable land and rich agricultural pickings and I think this would be a feature throughout Scotland if independence were a reality.

The territories of our current regional systems would probably alter quite radically post-independence and that would directly affect how the vote would be distributed.

We would likely end up having to adopt a system not unlike America, where presidential candidates would be elected on a populist, first past the post basis.

It's mental to think of it, but we would effectively be a republic that would have to reflect the population and not regions.
I'm definitely no expert on systems of government SP and I'm probably missing some major issues here but I'm not sure I like the idea of a Scottish President :cautious: I think we'd have to stick with the current party system but have a separate chamber, like a senate that represented each Scottish region, much in the same way the State Senate does for each individual state in America. That senate would also have to act as a 2nd chamber to hold government to account and pass and amend legislation.

At least that way each Scottish region gets fair representation by voting in their favoured Senator who can be judged on his/her own record, any legislation would be widely debated from all perspectives and narrow objectives aimed at promoting narrow interests would be diluted hopefully to the point where it would be near impossible to pass such legislation and individual government ministers would still be held to account for the areas they're responsible for instead of dodging accountability by hiding behind a glorified PR man in the shape of a President.

There's no perfect form of government but there would be no point in Independence if it doesn't result in fairer more equal representation for all Scots. How we achieve that will be left to those more intelligent and informed on these matters than I am thank god 🤪(y)

HH mate(y)
 

Ray

Well-known member
Speaking of lengthy and extremely boring replies here's one for you Goldfinch :D(y) -

'SNP in the 1930's - Scottish jobs for Scottish Citizens - Irish go back to Ireland.'

Any actual evidence that the SNP ever said this Goldfinch? Can't find a single reference or quote anywhere on the net to back up any part of this claim. Not a single instance that the party ever held such a position or a single quote from any SNP member espousing such a view. Not having a go at you personally but it's a pretty damning accusation to make and I'd like to see some hard evidence before I accept such a claim as fact.

Also I'd just like to point out that the Labour Party itself isn't exactly squeaky clean when it comes to anti-immigrant sentiment. From the Labour Party founder and icon Keir Hardie who had some extreme anti-immigrant views himself, to Labour Party MP Oswald Mosley who established the British Union of Fascists and more recently there was Gordon Brown's 'British jobs for British worker's' rhetoric. I'm also sure you would find other examples of anti-immigrant rhetoric and other questionable views coming from people within the Labour Party if you wanted to go looking for it. So I think it's fair to say that any Labour politician or supporter pointing an accusing finger at others for trying to gain votes by targeting immigrants maybe need to reflect on their own party's history a wee bit.

'No Celtic forum should be slagging Labour'

Why not? Labour sit in coalition with the Tories in Scottish councils up and down the country. They have more Orange Order members as councillors than any other party in Scotland and therefore it's no surprise that some Labour run councils have been awarding public money to the Orange Order at a time when they've been complaining of austerity cuts and their budgets being at breaking point. And what about the fact that a Labour controlled Glasgow City Council not only conspired with Labour affiliated union bosses to deny their own workers proper recompense when it was exposed that they had been denying those workers fair and equal pay for years but they then spent millions in taxpayer's money to fight those workers through the courts to deny them proper compensation. If that wasn't bad enough what's even more shameful is the fact that when they lost Glasgow City Council to the SNP in the council elections they then, with the help of those same Labour affiliated union bosses, had the brass neck to organise a strike on behalf of those workers demanding that the new SNP led council immediately and without delay compensate the very same workers they themselves had been denying compensation to for over a decade!

Add to the mix that they've shamefully abstained on Tory welfare cuts at Westminster (some of which btw they have vowed to keep in place if they ever regained power) that have devastated the lives of the poor and disabled while consistently voting down additional powers being devolved to the Scottish Parliament that, could in part go some way to help alleviate some of the worst of the Tories austerity policies, then these are just a handful of reasons why the Labour Party should be getting 'slagged' and not just on Celtic forums.

Labour have served the Catholic community?

I think saying that the Labour Party has 'served' the Catholic community is stretching things a bit. Whilst I'd agree that the Labour Party originally set out to represent and protect those at the lower end of society and that both they and the Catholic community have historically had shared values when it came to certain social issues these issues were never specific to Catholics alone so Labour weren't exactly 'serving' the Catholic community but more the wider working class community as a whole. Also this was a mutually beneficial arrangement so let's not pretend this was a wholly altruistic act on Labour's part as they were rewarded with Catholic votes in return for taking on issues that were not just specific to Catholics.

In fact I think it's fair to say that Labour did a disservice to Catholics in certain areas. During Labour's near 60 year reign as the 'only party in Scotland' they not only ignored anti-Irish racism and anti-Catholic sentiment in society but it was during this time that Catholics were routinely discriminated against in the workplace, were paid less in some sectors and systematically kept out of management positions meaning their earning potential was limited? Why didn't Labour and the unions step in when that was common practice?

Truth is rather than 'serving' the Catholic community Labour expertly walked the fine line of the religious divide in Scotland as a way of maximising their own voter base. They couldn't afford to alienate either side of the divide so they chose to bury their heads in the sand and pretend certain issues didn't exist while they concentrated on tackling the issues that affected the wider working class. Maybe they believed this was for the greater good but let's not kid ourselves that they were champions of the Catholic communities of Scotland.

I don't say any of this lightly, I say this as a former Labour voter from a family where supporting Labour was almost like a religion in itself. Whatever noble objectives Labour once had they are all but gone these days and all that's left is the recent and not so recent unpalatable truth that they are opportunistic chancers who'll portray themselves as all things to all men/women to get themselves into power. For that reason I will continue to vote SNP and use them as a vehicle to achieve Independence. After that all bets are off and my vote will be up for grabs, who knows maybe then we'll get a Labour Party worth voting for.

HH mate (y)
Your last paragraph hits a nail,the labour of old
That's ma biggest fear, if we vote yes for independence,it's the inevitable civil war that will ensue,and make the "troubles" look like a squabble!!!! hope tae phuq ah'm wrong, but........
if we can see it ,surely the SNP can also see the danger ,and I don’t use that word lightly,!!!!!! But maybe they don’t care ,just want independence,at any cost ?and deal with the consequences later ,but by then ,to late ,mayhem ensues,hh
 

TartanTim

Well-known member
What a great thread, I'll be voting SNP my political views mean I lean towards the left, want a Scottish Republic, also like a lot of the Green Party's policies. We've had 10yrs of Tory austerity & the country's still in a fuckin mess, 5yrs ago I started my own business, got my HGV Licence, bought a truck boat movers/Repo I'm making a living, but I also hear & see how folk are making loads of cash from tax evasion, company transferring etc. This has become easier under the Tories than it's ever been, Brexit was just so the rich can protect their dodgy dealings from EU scrutiny, but it also away to strip workers of rights etc, So this election is probably the most important we'll ever vote in get rid of the Tories& save our count or sit back & let it be destroyed.

Over the decades Labour & Tories have relied on Scotland sending down MP's who once in Westminster toe the party line, I know many of I you have issues with the SON but it's the only way Scotland's voice will be heard & Scottish people's rights, will be fought for. Indy isn't a cure all solution, but being dragged out of Europe will seriously damage Scotland economy.
 

kelly

Well-known member
What a great thread, I'll be voting SNP my political views mean I lean towards the left, want a Scottish Republic, also like a lot of the Green Party's policies. We've had 10yrs of Tory austerity & the country's still in a fuckin mess, 5yrs ago I started my own business, got my HGV Licence, bought a truck boat movers/Repo I'm making a living, but I also hear & see how folk are making loads of cash from tax evasion, company transferring etc. This has become easier under the Tories than it's ever been, Brexit was just so the rich can protect their dodgy dealings from EU scrutiny, but it also away to strip workers of rights etc, So this election is probably the most important we'll ever vote in get rid of the Tories& save our count or sit back & let it be destroyed.

Over the decades Labour & Tories have relied on Scotland sending down MP's who once in Westminster toe the party line, I know many of I you have issues with the SON but it's the only way Scotland's voice will be heard & Scottish people's rights, will be fought for. Indy isn't a cure all solution, but being dragged out of Europe will seriously damage Scotland economy.
In 2013 when they agreed to the indy ref nobody in Labour could see that this was a perfect move ,a chance once and for all to destroy the scottish votes and help destroy Labour seats in Scotland , think about it for a moment 50 seats

The Torys new they would be on a hiding to nothing fronting the indy ref ,so looked for a useful idiot there problem was so many labour MPs couldn't wait to get front of the queue, up stepped Darling and to get it over the line useful idiot back up Brown toscare the penshioners and step forward with the vow

It was the ultimate betrayal of Scottish voters to see them standing side by side with the Torys and joining in in the smear and project fear

The abiding memory of this was the day half the labour party took the train up to erm put us all back in our box

The imperial masters video on youtube showed them all for what they were and what Labour had become for all the votes that passed through generation to generation of labour voters in Scotland they trampled on everyones hope

In a way it was to keep us all down ,and the Tory plan worked ,scottish labour destoyed itself and only votes in Engurland matterd for power
 

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