An Aussie-Greek perspective on Ange Postecoglou

Aussie-Greek said:
With respect, who are you to tell me about the Greek experience in Australia?

Things have certainly improved, thankfully, but it was dark days for many of us "wogs" when the A-league was established and were told we were no longer welcomed or needed in Australia's "new football" after we carried the game in Australia for 60 years when most of "White (Anglo) Australia" was calling it a game for "poofters and wogs."

The NSL was dead and desperate changes were needed, but Ange was shut out purely for the reason that he had the attachment of being with "old soccer" - and no one in their right mind denies this. In fact, even a Sydney Morning Herald reporter (of Italian origin) mentioned this fact (but did not dive into it) in a podcast he did about Ange at Celtic.


Please do not engage in historical revisionism.
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I was there. Were you even born? The whole reason for changing to the National league was to get rid of the stigma attached to the 'wog' game where ethnic clubs fostered hatred towards other ethnic groups. Shielas, Wogs, and Poofters' if you really want to quote the great Johnny Warren. Get your facts right mate and stop trying to perpetuate myths. Even I (a Scotsman) was called a 'wog' in the heat of a match but never saw myself as a victim so it did not bother me, but you must be from Melbourne... just a joke mate
 
Vigobhoy said:
I was there. Were you even born? The whole reason for changing to the National league was to get rid of the stigma attached to the 'wog' game where ethnic clubs fostered hatred towards other ethnic groups. Shielas, Wogs, and Poofters' if you really want to quote the great Johnny Warren. Get your facts right mate and stop trying to perpetuate myths. Even I (a Scotsman) was called a 'wog' in the heat of a match but never saw myself as a victim so it did not bother me, but you must be from Melbourne... just a joke mate
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No, I am from Sydney.

And, read what I said, carefully "The NSL was dead and desperate changes were needed." I don't oppose the A-league, new clubs, the mainstreaming of football, etc - but it went to such extremity that even Postecoglou couldn't get a managing gig for so many years because he was labeled as an "Old Soccer wog."

Even this article by Optus Sports in 2020 says how "highly-rated NSL coaches Eddie Krncevic and Nick Theodorakopoulos (brief Jets stint) were among those whose coaching cards were marked ‘old soccer’" and could not get managing gigs. - https://sport.optus.com.au/articles/os13498/australian-coaches-davutovic?setDevice=mobile

This is very accepted consensus in Australia today, and as I said, even the Sydney Morning Herald reporter explained this fact on the Celtic podcast a few days ago.

I don't even know why you're trying to argue against this point.
 
Aussie-Greek said:
Part 2:
As you can see, Ange has experience in rebuilding clubs that are facing crises and turning them into champions - after in places with little to no resources, like Brisbane Roar and the Australia National Team, and with Yokohama with some resources. With his experience of achieving successful rebuilds, many Aussies say it will "take a season", but don't consider the immense resources he will play with at Celtic. Ange has never had this kind of resources at his disposal before. But none-the-less, he is an absolute specialist of picking up rough diamonds and polishing them into confident and forward looking players.

There's also been an exaggeration that Ange does not focus on defence etc, but this is bs. Ange was a defender during his playing career and can certainly form up a good back line.

Also, many believe that Ange is one who might stick to the press or something like this. Don't expect this, Ange is actually a man of few words. His fearsome reputation is for taking no bs, but usually out of the spotlight. yes there's that old video of him having it out for 15 minutes with the Australian reporter, but that was in 2007 and sunk his career to massive lows. Since this, his media engagement is very different. His no nonsense attitude will be towards the board and players, but most likely not to the media. He keeps most things out of the public eye.

Aussies have been massively hysterical over Ange because it is the first time an Aussie is managing a major football club. This is unprecedented in the Asian football continent. I find the reactions cringe, but yes, I am excited and pleased. The hysteria is because if there was one person we would put all our bets to represent an Asian/Aussie football manager at a major European club, it is him. I too am going to eat a huge slice of humble pie if Ange is a flop at Celtic.

Of course I do not know the problems of your club, only since Ange was linked to Celtic. But given his record of rebuilding clubs in crises, this is the EXACT type of thing Ange loves. He also RELISHES being written off as a potential failure. He has faced this at every step of his career and has ALWAYS humbled those who did not believe in him and proved them wrong. This is part of his persona, the underdog who always comes out on top. Believe me, he is not bothered one bit that the Scottish footballing community is laughing at him and predicting his failure. It's very Mourinho-like I guess, except without the cuntery.

If you guys have any questions about how Ange thinks, formulates teams, his past, why I believe he will succeed at Celtic (with my limited knowledge of your club's situation), etc etc, please do ask.

I've always been sympathetic to Celtic for political reasons, but now I will certainly be supporting your club under Ange. Hail Hail.
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Aussie-Greek said:
Part 1: Good evening bhoys and ghirls,

jumping onto the Celtic FC bandwagon now that Ange is managing your club. Having followed Ange's career for two decades, I thought I'd add a perspective that is different to what you have probably heard since it appears that every Celtic podcast/YouTube channel has plucked overly emotional Aussies to give an outline of Ange.

Ange is one of the near million Greeks (first, second and third generation) living in Australia, having been born in Athens, but moving to Melbourne when he was 5. In fact, Melbourne is the third largest Greek city in the world after Athens and Thessaloniki. He came from humble working class origins like most Greeks to Australia (my grandmother for example was illiterate) and often faced racism the predominately "White" (Anglo) Australia. Southern European migration to Australia was permitted after World War II and the relaxation of the "White Australia Policy," and this saw Australia be engulfed with migration from Greece, Italy, Yugoslavia, Spain, Malta, Portugal and Central Europe. Often these migrants would work 6 day weeks, facing discrimination at work and society, and would only have an outlet to be themselves in their football clubs in Australia that is completely dominated by rugby league if you were from New South Wales (Sydney) or Australian rules if you were from Victoria (Melbourne).

In this climate, Australia's first ever national league in any sport was the National Soccer League (NSL), and was effectively semi-professional and comprised of clubs established by migrant communities. Ange being Greek is a product of the South Melbourne Hellas FC as a mediocre player, and then a young manager. As a young manager, he took South Melbourne to two national titles.

When the NSL was disbanded and all the ethnic clubs relegated to state divisions with no possibility or pathway to the national league, Ange Postecoglu was given no opportunities to manage one of the new franchise teams that were in the new A-league. Ange was attached as one of the "Old Soccer ethnics" and the A-league was supposed to be "New Football" and ultra-modern. He was essentially shafted from any opportunity in the A-league despite being two-time champion in the former league.

From here he got a gig in the Australian Youth National teams in his late 30's and early 40's, and took over a system that was completely shambolic, and was given no resources to make changes, and told to stick to established curriculums. Essentially he was just a puppet, got a string of bad results, and was shafted after a shambolic 15 minute interview where he argued with the reporter.

During this period, he and his wife were so poor that they moved back into their parents house. He did some training clinics with youth and appeared as a football analyst for a local sports channel to make some money in football.

He absolutely could not get a job in Australia and ended up with Greek third division side Panachaiki. He had a falling out with the club due to attempts to involve themselves with onfield matters, and this was at a time when the financial crisis was beginning in Greece and the house of cards of corruption was being exposed. He was back in Australia in 8-9 months.

In 2009, Scotsman Archie Fraser was head of the A-league. Postecoglou spoke with him and asked for a job to manage somewhere in the A-league. Fraser was surprised Ange didn't have a job and got him one at Brisbane Roar after the manager was sacked after a drink driving incident, among others. Ange accepted only on the condition that he could do things the way he wanted, not wanting a repeat of his experience managing the Australian Youth and Panachaiki. Postecoglou got rid of the club's biggest names, including Craig Moore. This show's Ange is not afraid to get rid of ego's or big names if they are not what he needs or if they will be the type to try and undermine his authority.

Ange took over a Brisbane team that was near the body of the table (the A-league has no relegation and is salary capped) and turned it by the next season into a team that went onto a 36 game unbeaten streak - a record in any sport in Australia, and a very uncommon feat anywhere in world football despite the quality of the league. Keep in mind this is in a league that is salary capped, so it's not as if they went on a spending spree that other clubs cannot match. And it was not that they played terrible football, it was high intensity an
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Hello Aussie-Greek, like my fellow Noisers I would first like extend to you a huge Celtic welcome to both The Noise and The Celtic family. It would, however, be remiss of me not to warn you of the life-changing consequences of following the greatest football club there has ever been, or ever will be, in the whole of the history of human kind ! Once addicted, there's no turning back. If I can perhaps corrupt W B Yeats and just say you have inflicted upon yourself a terrible beauty !

I have been scraping about for any information I could find regarding our new gaffer; bloody hell, how I wish you'd chosen to give us the benefit of your wisdom sooner. Much valuable time could've been spent on other things, ( admittedly of lesser importance ). I had no knowledge of Ange. None whatsoever. But I did have this identikit in my mind of the type of personality I felt we needed. He pretty much tics most of the boxes.

You say he has experienced intolerance ? Well then, he will feel quite at home in our wee country, but that's maybe a discussion for another day. Ange has a truly massive job to rebuild our club, let there be no doubt about the magnitude of the task which lies ahead. But your description of his qualities sounds like he may be just the man for that task. Hopefully this is the beginning of ANOTHER glorious chapter in what is already a wonderful story of triumph over adversity. Once again, welcome. Hop aboard and enjoy the ride.
 
Aussie-Greek said:
No, I am from Sydney.

And, read what I said, carefully "The NSL was dead and desperate changes were needed." I don't oppose the A-league, new clubs, the mainstreaming of football, etc - but it went to such extremity that even Postecoglou couldn't get a managing gig for so many years because he was labeled as an "Old Soccer wog."

Even this article by Optus Sports in 2020 says how "highly-rated NSL coaches Eddie Krncevic and Nick Theodorakopoulos (brief Jets stint) were among those whose coaching cards were marked ‘old soccer’" and could not get managing gigs. - https://sport.optus.com.au/articles/os13498/australian-coaches-davutovic?setDevice=mobile

This is very accepted consensus in Australia today, and as I said, even the Sydney Morning Herald reporter explained this fact on the Celtic podcast a few days ago.

I don't even know why you're trying to argue against this point.
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Because I think you are taking a seriously slanted view of Aussie Football.due to your ethnicity. I don't want you to denegrate Aussie football by suggesting that every 'wog' kid has to first break barriers of ethnicity like Oz is a a racist society. That is what your original posts suggested to me and I don't believe it to be true at all.
 
I saw somebody suggest that Ange arrived in London a few days ago. Is this correct? Has he actually arrived in the UK. Can anybody confirm or are we STILL waiting for an announcement?
 
Aussie-Greek said:
Part 1: Good evening bhoys and ghirls,

jumping onto the Celtic FC bandwagon now that Ange is managing your club. Having followed Ange's career for two decades, I thought I'd add a perspective that is different to what you have probably heard since it appears that every Celtic podcast/YouTube channel has plucked overly emotional Aussies to give an outline of Ange.

Ange is one of the near million Greeks (first, second and third generation) living in Australia, having been born in Athens, but moving to Melbourne when he was 5. In fact, Melbourne is the third largest Greek city in the world after Athens and Thessaloniki. He came from humble working class origins like most Greeks to Australia (my grandmother for example was illiterate) and often faced racism the predominately "White" (Anglo) Australia. Southern European migration to Australia was permitted after World War II and the relaxation of the "White Australia Policy," and this saw Australia be engulfed with migration from Greece, Italy, Yugoslavia, Spain, Malta, Portugal and Central Europe. Often these migrants would work 6 day weeks, facing discrimination at work and society, and would only have an outlet to be themselves in their football clubs in Australia that is completely dominated by rugby league if you were from New South Wales (Sydney) or Australian rules if you were from Victoria (Melbourne).

In this climate, Australia's first ever national league in any sport was the National Soccer League (NSL), and was effectively semi-professional and comprised of clubs established by migrant communities. Ange being Greek is a product of the South Melbourne Hellas FC as a mediocre player, and then a young manager. As a young manager, he took South Melbourne to two national titles.

When the NSL was disbanded and all the ethnic clubs relegated to state divisions with no possibility or pathway to the national league, Ange Postecoglu was given no opportunities to manage one of the new franchise teams that were in the new A-league. Ange was attached as one of the "Old Soccer ethnics" and the A-league was supposed to be "New Football" and ultra-modern. He was essentially shafted from any opportunity in the A-league despite being two-time champion in the former league.

From here he got a gig in the Australian Youth National teams in his late 30's and early 40's, and took over a system that was completely shambolic, and was given no resources to make changes, and told to stick to established curriculums. Essentially he was just a puppet, got a string of bad results, and was shafted after a shambolic 15 minute interview where he argued with the reporter.

During this period, he and his wife were so poor that they moved back into their parents house. He did some training clinics with youth and appeared as a football analyst for a local sports channel to make some money in football.

He absolutely could not get a job in Australia and ended up with Greek third division side Panachaiki. He had a falling out with the club due to attempts to involve themselves with onfield matters, and this was at a time when the financial crisis was beginning in Greece and the house of cards of corruption was being exposed. He was back in Australia in 8-9 months.

In 2009, Scotsman Archie Fraser was head of the A-league. Postecoglou spoke with him and asked for a job to manage somewhere in the A-league. Fraser was surprised Ange didn't have a job and got him one at Brisbane Roar after the manager was sacked after a drink driving incident, among others. Ange accepted only on the condition that he could do things the way he wanted, not wanting a repeat of his experience managing the Australian Youth and Panachaiki. Postecoglou got rid of the club's biggest names, including Craig Moore. This show's Ange is not afraid to get rid of ego's or big names if they are not what he needs or if they will be the type to try and undermine his authority.

Ange took over a Brisbane team that was near the body of the table (the A-league has no relegation and is salary capped) and turned it by the next season into a team that went onto a 36 game unbeaten streak - a record in any sport in Australia, and a very uncommon feat anywhere in world football despite the quality of the league. Keep in mind this is in a league that is salary capped, so it's not as if they went on a spending spree that other clubs cannot match. And it was not that they played terrible football, it was high intensity and high pressing football, constantly on the attack - something unseen in Australia at that point and something Australia was not expecting at all. In two-and-a-half years at Brisbane he led the club to back-to-back A-League championships (Australia has a Grand Final system for top 6 clubs), a premiership (Coming first in the league) and consecutive qualification for the Asian Champions League - in a salary cap and after he took over a club near the bottom of the table.

Ange then signed a three year contract with Melbourne Victory in 2012, took over and did another huge sweep out of big names. including Harry Kewell. However, in the second season into his contract when his team was raring to go after the rebuild (the same type of rebuild he did at Brisbane), he was offered a five-year contract for the Australian National Squad. He took over from German manager Holger Osieck whose last two games managing Australia resulted in successive 6-0 losses to Brazil and France, and he utterly failed to rebuild Australia after the retirement of the Golden Generation (Kewell, Viduka, Moore, etc). Postecoglou over the course of his time as Australia manager, I think he trialled over 30 players from all leagues. During this period, he traveled many times to Scotland to watch the Aussie-based players, and watched players all over Britain and the continent, including second and third tier leagues. In fact, when Australia won the Asia continental cup in its first and only ever time under Ange, one of the two Aussie goal scorers was a completely unknown Aussie that Ange plucked out from Swindon Town in England's League 1.

Due to Australia's terrible production line of youth (that Ange had tried addressing early in his career before he got ran out of Australia), we had nothing akin to the Golden Generation when we had most of our squad playing in the top and middle tier leagues of Europe, and effectively Ange turned a team of duds into one that participated in two WC's consecutively and won the Asian Cup. But what was awesome was HOW we played football, especially in the 2014 World Cup. We absolutely rattled the Group of Death and did not make it easy for the Netherlands (3-2), Chile (3-1) and Spain (3-0) and played respectable football. A far cry from the 6-0 drudging's we got from France and Brazil under Ange's predecessor.

Ange got Australia to the 2018 World Cup but quit the position because of his endless issues with the football federation. Ange wanted to rebuild Australia's entire football system because we did not (and still do not) have a good youth coming through. The FA only wanted him to worry about getting Australia to the World Cup while Ange had a vision that Australia should be a country that might not necessarily win it, but will certainly compete for it and not just be a participant. The FA told him that his only job is to worry about getting to qualification and whatever happens at the world cup happens, so Ange secured qualification and quit as he hated the lack of ambition.

He was quickly snapped up by by Yokohama Marinos on December 2017, and ensured the team survived relegation when he took over midway through the first season. In the second season, Marinos won its first league title in 15 years in a league that is not a 2 or 3 team race like in Scotland or Spain. In the third season they finished mid-table but were of course affected by the COVID situation. More importantly though, Ange revolutionised how football was not only played by Marinos, but all through out Japan, with more and more managers adopting his style of play and it being implemented in youth set ups. He has emboldened Japanese football and is loved by not just Marinos, but throughout Japan.

The most important part to take away from his story is that he comes from a working class immigrant background. He has experienced racism in Australia within the Aussie football authorities, such as initially being hindered from A-league participation as he was seen as a part of the old ethnic NSL. He was chased out of the youth Australia squads after being scapegoated for poor results whilst also being restricted from doing what he wanted to do. Experienced football corruption in Greece. Was reduced to poverty and lived with his in-laws. Made a Brisbane Roar team that was at the bottom when he took over into unbeaten champions in the next season. FA had to humbly ask Ange to take over the National Team and transformed duds into continental champions. Told the FA to stick after securing Australia's next WC qualification for not being ambitious enough. Took over Yokohama and turned them into champions after being near relegation when he took over the season before.
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Fair play to ye AG.
The fact that you even took the time to write all that is impressive.
 
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