Wee red red red will be spitting feathers

Fisiani said:
There is no such thing as free health and education. You mean free to the end user. Who pays the nurses and doctors and cleaners and the thousands of health workers (140,000) and the teachers and the support staff and builds the buildings. You might say the government - that's nonsense. Government pays the bills but government gets the money from the taxpayers either as individuals or as companies. Put aside your beliefs that'the only way is free' and consider what would happen if you had to pay just $5 to see a doctor or nurse. How much do you currently pay to see a dentist?
In Scotland there are approximately 20 million health consulations a year. That tiny and affordable fee would generate 100,000,000 pounds. What could you use that money for?
Just because it has been 'free' since 1945 does not mean that that is the only way.
Last week in New Zealand i visted my GP and for a 15 minute consultation was charged 33 pounds and that equates to her earning 132 pounds an hour. Not unreasonable. We do not charge pregnant women or children or the poor.
Slogans are cheap but free health in Scotland means that billionaires get free treatment. How is that possibly equitable and a sensible use of taxpayer money. Here's a slogan - Treat according to need and pay according to ability. I know that what i have written will raise a red mist of fury with people steeped in socialist dogma. But ask yourself, is your health and education the best in the world? The answer I can tell you is NO.
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Thats a fair point on the health care if they done wit u said n charge a fiver to people on the social and it goes up the more u earn I don't think that's unreasonable at all its certainly better than a full blown private health service like the U.S they milk it over there for every dime they can keep it reasonable then I don't think any reasonable person would argue against it
 
Fisiani said:
There is no such thing as free health and education. You mean free to the end user. Who pays the nurses and doctors and cleaners and the thousands of health workers (140,000) and the teachers and the support staff and builds the buildings. You might say the government - that's nonsense. Government pays the bills but government gets the money from the taxpayers either as individuals or as companies. Put aside your beliefs that'the only way is free' and consider what would happen if you had to pay just $5 to see a doctor or nurse. How much do you currently pay to see a dentist?
In Scotland there are approximately 20 million health consulations a year. That tiny and affordable fee would generate 100,000,000 pounds. What could you use that money for?
Just because it has been 'free' since 1945 does not mean that that is the only way.
Last week in New Zealand i visted my GP and for a 15 minute consultation was charged 33 pounds and that equates to her earning 132 pounds an hour. Not unreasonable. We do not charge pregnant women or children or the poor.
Slogans are cheap but free health in Scotland means that billionaires get free treatment. How is that possibly equitable and a sensible use of taxpayer money. Here's a slogan - Treat according to need and pay according to ability. I know that what i have written will raise a red mist of fury with people steeped in socialist dogma. But ask yourself, is your health and education the best in the world? The answer I can tell you is NO.
Click to expand...
The answer I can tell you is NO.

Depends who is doing the teaching?
 
Fisiani said:
There is no such thing as free health and education. You mean free to the end user. Who pays the nurses and doctors and cleaners and the thousands of health workers (140,000) and the teachers and the support staff and builds the buildings. You might say the government - that's nonsense. Government pays the bills but government gets the money from the taxpayers either as individuals or as companies. Put aside your beliefs that'the only way is free' and consider what would happen if you had to pay just $5 to see a doctor or nurse. How much do you currently pay to see a dentist?
In Scotland there are approximately 20 million health consulations a year. That tiny and affordable fee would generate 100,000,000 pounds. What could you use that money for?
Just because it has been 'free' since 1945 does not mean that that is the only way.
Last week in New Zealand i visted my GP and for a 15 minute consultation was charged 33 pounds and that equates to her earning 132 pounds an hour. Not unreasonable. We do not charge pregnant women or children or the poor.
Slogans are cheap but free health in Scotland means that billionaires get free treatment. How is that possibly equitable and a sensible use of taxpayer money. Here's a slogan - Treat according to need and pay according to ability. I know that what i have written will raise a red mist of fury with people steeped in socialist dogma. But ask yourself, is your health and education the best in the world? The answer I can tell you is NO.
Click to expand...
Stop talking sense Fisiani it'll confuse the brainwashed!
 
Cairnsybhoy79 said:
Thats a fair point on the health care if they done wit u said n charge a fiver to people on the social and it goes up the more u earn I don't think that's unreasonable at all its certainly better than a full blown private health service like the U.S they milk it over there for every dime they can keep it reasonable then I don't think any reasonable person would argue against it
Click to expand...
We are not alone in free health care, Americans just milk what is dirt cheap to make

 
The biggest difference in general practice in Scotland and New Zealand is that we see patients every 15 minutes. Four per hour. In Scotland it was just 7 minutes per patient in my time 8 per hour, admittedly 40 years ago.
In Scotland I saw many patients wanting a sick line who were not sick, with social problems such as poor housing, awful relationships or unemployment masquerading as health problems, with trivial issues, with alcoholism, with chronic bronchitis and chain smoking. with hopelessness, with no ambition. I even had a woman bring in her fourth son because "he must have a blockage because his ears don't run."She did not believe me that he was normal. Seriously! My job satisfaction was not ideal and I could not envisage 40 more years of that.
It's not like that here. I enjoy my job.
 
The main problem with today's health service is money, there is enough money to provide a great service it is just not spent wisely. All the new hospitals over the last 20 odd years were built by private investors, they now rent out the hospitals to the health service. This is a never ending pit. Money that should go for more staff better care of pt is being given to the private sector & now always will be. The government at the time should have bitten the bullet & paid for the new building. Short term gain for long term pain.
 
What about the poor who wouldn't or couldn't afford to go to the docs if there was a nominal fee being charged, and dont tell me or even lecture about giving up the fags or drink and they would be able to afford it. Thousands of people on a daily basis would avoid seeking medical help leading to even more medical problems. Yea sure the rich might pay in your medical utopia but if it means even one poor person dying needlessly then thats not on.

And what about prescription charges,since my opp I am on at least 6 different daily pills of which at least 2 will be for life, now I could afford to pay lets say £10 a prescription under normal circumstances, but my work has been decimated due to the pandemic, so what would you suggest I do to pay for my prescriptions, go cap in hand to my children? I've know doubt if that case arouse they would help in a heart beat, but what if I had no one to turn to.

At best your ideas are simplistic at worst they make you sound like a dickensian character looking down on the less fortunate as you shake your head and count your coins.

Fis you might not agree, but our Health care system is the envy of the world for people in need, sure its stressful at the best of times even more so now,and yes there are people who cant handle it and leave for pastures new and good luck to them, health care for everyone is the most sensible imho, its free as you say to the end user and long may it be that way, it ain't perfect but whose is.
 
Read my post more carefully 50 sog. The poor do not pay! No system is perfect but there is no free health system anywhere in the world. I'm not advocating an American system but free to the end user is not a sacred cow and it should be questioned and qualified and considered. Otherwise it is an article of so called socialist faith. A careful small fee for service would massively reduce demand and allow doctors to deliver better care. Ask any doctor.
 
lennono said:
Do you think the 9 woman who made complaints, one of attempted rape.....made all this up just to stop Salmond.....
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When the accusations began to surface, my immediate feeling was that there possibly was some truth in it because of the number involved. However, innocent until proven guilty is still one one the foundations of a civilised society. I've got to say, while following the case I began to have my doubts. The best example of that was the rape allegation. As it turned out, the woman who gave account of the incident wasn't even at the party where she said it took place.

Has it damaged Alex Salmond ? Possibly. These days, what was a career ending situation, is now a seven-day- wonder. The FM has come out of it stronger if anything.

Saddest thing is, for some, truth becomes a casualty when trying to score points.
.
 
Question, to all those seeking independence ,

if Scotland was independent right now , during the pandemic , the tens of thousands people who were furloughed and the British gov paid them so they would be ok and not lose there jobs
Who would have paid in Scotland ??
and in what currency ??
 
Fisiani said:
There is no such thing as free health and education. You mean free to the end user. Who pays the nurses and doctors and cleaners and the thousands of health workers (140,000) and the teachers and the support staff and builds the buildings. You might say the government - that's nonsense. Government pays the bills but government gets the money from the taxpayers either as individuals or as companies. Put aside your beliefs that'the only way is free' and consider what would happen if you had to pay just $5 to see a doctor or nurse. How much do you currently pay to see a dentist?
In Scotland there are approximately 20 million health consulations a year. That tiny and affordable fee would generate 100,000,000 pounds. What could you use that money for?
Just because it has been 'free' since 1945 does not mean that that is the only way.
Last week in New Zealand i visted my GP and for a 15 minute consultation was charged 33 pounds and that equates to her earning 132 pounds an hour. Not unreasonable. We do not charge pregnant women or children or the poor.
Slogans are cheap but free health in Scotland means that billionaires get free treatment. How is that possibly equitable and a sensible use of taxpayer money. Here's a slogan - Treat according to need and pay according to ability. I know that what i have written will raise a red mist of fury with people steeped in socialist dogma. But ask yourself, is your health and education the best in the world? The answer I can tell you is NO.
Click to expand...
Lots of very good comments Fisiani, you are correct in your statement as regards who pays for our welfare system. Governments don' t actually HAVE money; they have control over how they spend OUR money. So yes, it would be true to say It's not free. I think it's also factual to say there's room for improvement in the overall governance of Scotland. That includes how OUR money is spent for the good of the majority. That's one of the reasons I will vote yes.

A wee PS for Hoopy.......I don't have an anti- England bone in my body. I have family living in Bath. Absolutely love the place.
 
Torrancetim said:
Question, to all those seeking independence ,

if Scotland was independent right now , during the pandemic , the tens of thousands people who were furloughed and the British gov paid them so they would be ok and not lose there jobs
Who would have paid in Scotland ??
and in what currency ??
Click to expand...
The UK government has actually borrowed money to help us through the pandemic. At the same time they have denied Scotland the powers to do exactly the same thing. So there would've been absolutely no difference to the present response.
 
Fisiani said:
Read my post more carefully 50 sog. The poor do not pay! No system is perfect but there is no free health system anywhere in the world. I'm not advocating an American system but free to the end user is not a sacred cow and it should be questioned and qualified and considered. Otherwise it is an article of so called socialist faith. A careful small fee for service would massively reduce demand and allow doctors to deliver better care. Ask any doctor.
Click to expand...
Thks for answering Fis, however what your advocating would either bring in a means test to see who pays or not ( wont work),or like some museums would be payment on a voluntary service also not viable. There was a movement in the 70/80s towards a 2 tier system where if you could afford it you could pay for your own healthcare through insurance companies and beat the ques,but unless your in the super rich category it hasn't really been a success and most insurance companies dont touch it anymore.

Touching on the political side, and this is only my view, independence in Scotland wouldn't be a good thing for the NHS in the long run, do we run our own out with the rest of GB, we already lose enough doctors nurses ambulance crew etc to other Nations, and I doubt that in the long run we would be able to hold on to the talent we have in our health care system or entice talent from abroad including the rest of the UK.
 
Torrancetim said:
Question, to all those seeking independence ,

if Scotland was independent right now , during the pandemic , the tens of thousands people who were furloughed and the British gov paid them so they would be ok and not lose there jobs
Who would have paid in Scotland ??
and in what currency ??
Click to expand...

They would have been on the E.U's recovery and vaccination programme.

Did you not notice how the F.M. claimed she had single handedly beaten COVID by doing it her way.
Westminster them said they would stop handing her emergency funding and she locked Glasgow down straight away

How Independence can be claimed by immediately rejoinning the E.U and wanting to be governed by Brussels is beyond me.
Scotland should stand in its own as a truly independent country.

She's a shitbag, I read a Celtic blog the other day saying shed ran rings round the investigation and it was great to watch her performance as she dismantled them.
What performance?
Claiming you forgot or don't remember or can't think isn't a performance.


She'll drive Scotland into the ground to get her dream of independence.
She's wrecked everything her and the SNP has been involved in.

How any Celtic fan can even think of voting for her is beyond me
She shown that she'll fuck anyone over.
Suspends us from playing and condemns us while congratulating the zombies win their players get repeatedly caught?
Yellow cards?
Last season fat Alfie managed to get 3 in a game she must be working to get three in a match
She must be working to those rules
 
Frank Owen said:
A wee PS for Hoopy.......I don't have an anti- England bone in my body. I have family living in Bath. Absolutely love the place.
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Frank it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that you don't have the usual Anti-English mentality, you've clearly looked in to the pros and cons of independence and made a rational decision based on your findings, I completely respect that, I'd probably even enjoy a discussion with you about independence (something that I'd generally avoid like the plague)

But there is plenty of Anti-English sentiment among plenty nationalists and you'll find plenty of it on here. Why do you believe in nationalism? Because they fuckin "Engerlish" are stealing our money to build power stations and victorian tunnels and their poisoning us with their radiation!

It's the lunacy I can't be arsed with, the strong held believe that the English all hate us and are constantly abusing us, its just bloody nonsense. It seems to me that many support independence based on emotion rather than facts, you are clearly not of that camp.
 
Frank Owen said:
The UK government has actually borrowed money to help us through the pandemic. At the same time they have denied Scotland the powers to do exactly the same thing. So there would've been absolutely no difference to the present response.
Click to expand...
Are you sure Frank ?? I do not think that the Scottish govt would have been as generous as the uk govt has been
 
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