A Cock and Turnbull Story

It seems David Turnbull is moving to Norwich. Motherwell have certainly accepted a bid for him. The newly promoted EPL side will easily be able to pick up his wages. Relative to the fiscal conditions of the Scottish Premiership, this is like us signing a player and giving him £6000 per-week. It's peanuts to them, as is the alleged £3.25 million fee they'll pay for the 19-year-old. The narrative will already be pushed, by both our external enemies and the internal Black Cloud Brigade, that we 'lost' Turnbull. We did not. We pulled out of the offer after a stand off with his exceptionally dubious agents and then the Norwich story emerged. There are two ways of looking at this:

1) Celtic were entirely correct to not cave into Turnbull's demands - the ramifications of us paying £20,000 grand per-week to a 19-year-old lad who has played only one full season of senior football is absurd and would set a very dangerous trend for transfers going forward.

2) Celtic have lost a potentially brilliant young player due to the fiscal intransigence of those who run our club. This will be cited as yet another example of 'penny-pinching' by Lawwell and a 'biscuit tin' mentality.

In this scenario, I'm perfectly comfortable with not simply looking at but fully endorsing 1. Imagine if we caved to Turnbull's wage demands? Not only would this unsettle the young and perhaps even mature talent we have in our squad, but it would mean that every time we target a promising player, they're going to expect Turnbull money. Sevco, in their obsessive compulsion to beat us, might be willing to spend silly money on unproven English third tier players like Joe Aribo, but I'm really glad Celtic haven't went down this road.

As for Turnbull, I couldn't give a shit about his fate as a footballer. If the lad wanted to come and play at one of the biggest, most famous clubs in world football with a very good chance of experiencing playing in the biggest tournament in world football, namely the Champions League, he would've made the transfer happen. Agents are powerful, yes, but it's the player that fundamentally adorns them with such power. No matter their influence, their guile and their machinations, they are still employed by the player. I can only conclude that David Turnbull didn't want to play for Celtic.

I write this with very little bitterness, but he will very likely, save some huge change in the culture of the EPL where instant gratification is required (clubs rarely have time for projects when they face relegation and the full financial ramifications of it) and where teams like Norwich can spend big bucks on players easily better than the boy Turnbull, end up as at the very best a squad player for Norwich. He'll play against truly top quality opposition sparingly and he will win, barring a miracle, absolutely no silverware. I think it's true that anyone who turns down Celtic will one day, whether they like it or not, live to regret it, so I feel sorry for Turnbull that he won't get to experience being part of this wonderful club and its culture - he won't experience the constant stimulus of trying to break records and punch above our weight in Europe.

So the Turnbull saga is ended. I'm not going to initiate any more talk about it and I've been relatively surprised by the response of most Celtic fans to the whole affair. Though many distrust Lawwell and the board, reason has prevailed and it can be seen here that they were entirely in the right when it came to negotiations and offers.

So now we move on. And here I might introduce a mere sliver of doom. Sometimes it feels like we were cursed when it comes to transfers. We began last season with a similar saga and it went downhill from there. Is there a problem in our recruitment? Playing for Celtic ought to be an extremely attractive prospect, but it seems that every bit of business is a slog. I think the answer lies more in the general manner in which football is becoming an entirely greed-orientated endeavour. People want riches and fame - the glory, the grit and the hard work comes a distant last.

But there' a logistical side to all this. We're not far away from CL qualification and we seem no nearer now to signing anyone of true note in any of the positions we all know need to be strengthened than we were last summer - or so it seems. This is a major problem. We do need injections into the squad both pragmatically and in terms of re-energising our existing roster of players. I can only hope that there are big moves occurring behind the scenes and beyond the gaze of the hysterical tabloids and their unrepentant will to spout as much bullshit as possible during silly season.

As much as I am not stung, depressed or embittered by the Turnbull saga, I do feel like we need a major transfer lift in the coming week. A real headline grabber, but of course not simply for the sake of headlines. A player or players that will strengthen our squad and expand our horizons. Anyway, apologies for the length of this post, but I wanted to get that off my chest.

HH
Great post Sam.
Ye are right about paying a 19 year old £20000 a week.
 
At no stage have I said that we should spend our way into oblivion. Not even close to it. I participate in these forums because I live and breathe Celtic, presumably like everyone else on here. Why would I want to see my club implode in that manner?

It is equally as possible to sleepwalk your way into oblivion as it is to spend your way there. That’s an alternative, right there.

I don’t think it’s good enough to sit back and wait for the inevitable. If we do that, where we are now will seem like the glory days compared to what’s to come. There is always a better, smarter way to go about anything. I can't give a prescriptive answer as to what to do better because I would need access to far more in the way of information to be able to start to consider this fully, just as in the same way that you cannot tell me absolutely that maintaining our current course is the best available option.
FB, we just completed an historic, totally unprecedented treble treble.

They don't seem like glory days, These ARE glory days.
 
If you think the worst we're looking at is not winning the league, then you're not looking far enough ahead. It doesn't take a great leap of imagination to see us in a place where we've got a team comparable in quality to present day Aberdeen (or worse) regularly playing to crowds of less than 20,000 (or less). Plus, you still seem to think that I'm advocating spending big. I'm not!
 
If you think the worst we're looking at is not winning the league, then you're not looking far enough ahead. It doesn't take a great leap of imagination to see us in a place where we've got a team comparable in quality to present day Aberdeen (or worse) regularly playing to crowds of less than 20,000 (or less). Plus, you still seem to think that I'm advocating spending big. I'm not!
And even in that scenario, it's nothing new!

It happened a few times during the 80's even when we were competing for titles. The important factor is, is that there will still be a team.

You can look for negatives in any given set of circumstances, but try turning that frown upside down and look at the possible implications of further changes in World/European club football.

There is still no viable alternative being provided. You've fudged the debate by stating that you do not have access to the appropriate data, but take your own imaginative leap and share your ideas as to how best proceed.

I guarantee every one of them will require spending a tonne of money, FB.
 
It didn't feel glorious. Seville felt glorious and we lost that one. We are Celtic, beating up the little kids in the playground is not glory for us.
Sorry???

That is the most condescending and patronising comment so far!

That is not only insulting to Celtic, but to every other club who has ever played the game!

No club has a divine right to win football matches or trophies, no matter who they are.

That's the shite that the entitled ones preach, mate, but not in my book.

Hear an awful lot of that pish from the new fans that follow the EPL sides, don't expect to hear it from Celtic fans.

Seville was heartbreaking, FB, heartbreaking!

The fans were glorious, the effort was heroic - but the outcome was heartbreaking.

Don't confuse the two.
 
No, I don't agree, no matter how loud you shout. There can be glory in defeat. Glory exists in the struggle, in the rising to the occasion. It's a separate matter to consider whether the defeat itself was heartbreaking.

This was a good debate up until your last post. Take a deep breath and remember that we are all entitled to our own view, not just you. Not pretending to find a scrappy cup win outstanding doesn't depreciate my relationship with the club. I don't find it glorious to beat teams who are hamstrung financially, even worse than we are. That doesn't patronise those teams. In fact, I sympathise. Do you think PSG fans are finding their 7 goal demolition of us glorious? Real glory is in taking on and beating your peers or, better still, overreaching what is expected. And it's no more a fudge to say that you know that what we are doing is the best course of action than for me to question if that is correct, as neither of us (I assume) is privilege to a full disclosure of information.

I'm not interested in sound bites and mindless optimism. Realism, accountability, professionalism, transparency and action, that's what I want. I honestly don't think that's what we're getting.
 
It didn't feel glorious. Seville felt glorious and we lost that one. We are Celtic, beating up the little kids in the playground is not glory for us.

Yeah man, come on, there's a reason why no one has ever done a treble treble (or a double treble for that matter) before. It's hardly a walk in the park. To downplay it like that is just completely beyond me. Maybe we should've lamented it?
 
The treble trebles, the 10-in-a-rows etc. is our bread and butter. It's why our club functions. This is what really grinds my gears about people conjuring the Ajax model. Ajax won the CL in the 1990s. Ajax got to the semi-finals because for the past few decades they have invested HUGE amounts of money into a footballing academy system that pays dividends, while they have also had the ability to splash the cash on decent transfers. All of this has been helped by the Dutch FA, or whatever they're called, allowing B teams to play in lower leagues, as well as a different footballing culture that better serves the production of young players.

They exist and function well in conditions that Celtic simply do not have in Scotland. For me, progress in Europe will always mean that we're punching above our weight. And barring something seismic happening (like a move to the EPL, which is unlikely), we're going to be struggling in the CL for years to come. We can definitely advance and develop our youth system and our youth scouting system, but that's going to take a long time, and without changes occurring in the system that Celtic has minimal control over, it's never going to be the same as Ajax.
 
The treble trebles, the 10-in-a-rows etc. is our bread and butter. It's why our club functions. This is what really grinds my gears about people conjuring the Ajax model. Ajax won the CL in the 1990s. Ajax got to the semi-finals because for the past few decades they have invested HUGE amounts of money into a footballing academy system that pays dividends, while they have also had the ability to splash the cash on decent transfers. All of this has been helped by the Dutch FA, or whatever they're called, allowing B teams to play in lower leagues, as well as a different footballing culture that better serves the production of young players.

They exist and function well in conditions that Celtic simply do not have in Scotland. For me, progress in Europe will always mean that we're punching above our weight. And barring something seismic happening (like a move to the EPL, which is unlikely), we're going to be struggling in the CL for years to come. We can definitely advance and develop our youth system and our youth scouting system, but that's going to take a long time, and without changes occurring in the system that Celtic has minimal control over, it's never going to be the same as Ajax.
well said Sam Hail Hail
 
No, I don't agree, no matter how loud you shout. There can be glory in defeat. Glory exists in the struggle, in the rising to the occasion. It's a separate matter to consider whether the defeat itself was heartbreaking.

This was a good debate up until your last post. Take a deep breath and remember that we are all entitled to our own view, not just you. Not pretending to find a scrappy cup win outstanding doesn't depreciate my relationship with the club. I don't find it glorious to beat teams who are hamstrung financially, even worse than we are. That doesn't patronise those teams. In fact, I sympathise. Do you think PSG fans are finding their 7 goal demolition of us glorious? Real glory is in taking on and beating your peers or, better still, overreaching what is expected. And it's no more a fudge to say that you know that what we are doing is the best course of action than for me to question if that is correct, as neither of us (I assume) is privilege to a full disclosure of information.

I'm not interested in sound bites and mindless optimism. Realism, accountability, professionalism, transparency and action, that's what I want. I honestly don't think that's what we're getting.
My breathing is nice, rhythmic and regular.......no deep breaths required.

On the first point re. Seville.

It was heartbreaking by the simple premise that it was preventable and winnable.

There can be glory in defeat, but mainly when you are facing insurmountable odds and an extraordinary opponent.

Porto were decent, but they dived and connived and we gifted them goals. That does not relate to glory in defeat, that is an example of losing heartbreakingly.

On the second point re. Opinion

You had the floor, you have the floor and the floor is still open.

My right to question your opinion is equalled only by your right to question mine.

Don't project by suggesting that I'm taking the high ground on opinion. I feelthat I've supported my opinion, but I think you're falling short in supporting your own. If it's a matter of opinion, then please feel free to opine on how you feel the club should best proceed. Don't obscure your opinion (if it is only a matter of that) by not providing a general theory on how Celtic should navigate the present and the future.

Re. point 3 - financial muscle

Huge salaries, massive transfer fees and big reputations do NOT guarantee success.

Young men have to go out and compete with other young men and also deal with a whole range of variable factors. By the way, did you see the Champions League Final? Couldn't keep my eyes off of the free-flowing beautiful football there.......no, not quite.

On point 4 re. Full disclosure

That's why we're discussing this topic. You have a bit of previous with the passive/aggressive debating technique, FB. You have a tendency to say folk take things personally and that they are taking ownership of opinion.

In both of those examples, I recall you taking things somewhat personally in a previous debate, and you're kinda backing your own opinion here too (but not with any substantive evidence)

You can't have it both ways, buddy - you have to also accept that perspectives vary from your own, but are no more or no less valid.
 
Yeah man, come on, there's a reason why no one has ever done a treble treble (or a double treble for that matter) before. It's hardly a walk in the park. To downplay it like that is just completely beyond me. Maybe we should've lamented it?


And an invincible season too Sam, this season we play for the double 9 league title scoop.

And we all know all the other teams play us as if their playing in a cup game.

Try that pressure ffs
 
My breathing is nice, rhythmic and regular.......no deep breaths required.

On the first point re. Seville.

It was heartbreaking by the simple premise that it was preventable and winnable.

There can be glory in defeat, but mainly when you are facing insurmountable odds and an extraordinary opponent.

Porto were decent, but they dived and connived and we gifted them goals. That does not relate to glory in defeat, that is an example of losing heartbreakingly.

On the second point re. Opinion

You had the floor, you have the floor and the floor is still open.

My right to question your opinion is equalled only by your right to question mine.

Don't project by suggesting that I'm taking the high ground on opinion. I feelthat I've supported my opinion, but I think you're falling short in supporting your own. If it's a matter of opinion, then please feel free to opine on how you feel the club should best proceed. Don't obscure your opinion (if it is only a matter of that) by not providing a general theory on how Celtic should navigate the present and the future.

Re. point 3 - financial muscle

Huge salaries, massive transfer fees and big reputations do NOT guarantee success.

Young men have to go out and compete with other young men and also deal with a whole range of variable factors. By the way, did you see the Champions League Final? Couldn't keep my eyes off of the free-flowing beautiful football there.......no, not quite.

On point 4 re. Full disclosure

That's why we're discussing this topic. You have a bit of previous with the passive/aggressive debating technique, FB. You have a tendency to say folk take things personally and that they are taking ownership of opinion.

In both of those examples, I recall you taking things somewhat personally in a previous debate, and you're kinda backing your own opinion here too (but not with any substantive evidence)

You can't have it both ways, buddy - you have to also accept that perspectives vary from your own, but are no more or no less valid.
spot on SP,we can have differing opinions and debate all day long but no need to make it personal!
 
If you think the worst we're looking at is not winning the league, then you're not looking far enough ahead. It doesn't take a great leap of imagination to see us in a place where we've got a team comparable in quality to present day Aberdeen (or worse) regularly playing to crowds of less than 20,000 (or less). Plus, you still seem to think that I'm advocating spending big. I'm not!
success and dominance is cyclical,we won't win trebles every year,europe's a glass ceiling the subsidised clubs have seen to that,our transfer targets seem to be looking for epl level wages,the board,as much as we don't like are doing things,in the main,correctly,so sit back and enjoy the ride and when it all goes tits up then we can all moan like phuq together,
great piece from David Potter;
https://thecelticstar.com/david-potter-revisits-celtic-in-1978-now-this-was-bad/
 
success and dominance is cyclical,we won't win trebles every year,europe's a glass ceiling the subsidised clubs have seen to that,our transfer targets seem to be looking for epl level wages,the board,as much as we don't like are doing things,in the main,correctly,so sit back and enjoy the ride and when it all goes tits up then we can all moan like phuq together,
great piece from David Potter;
https://thecelticstar.com/david-potter-revisits-celtic-in-1978-now-this-was-bad/
I keep forgetting just how bad that referee was.

I just watched the official history of Celtic yesterday on the plane and they state quite clearly on this that Big Jock called Bob Paisley and offered him Dalglish. So not only did we not say "no" to Liverpool but we actively pushed Kenny to them.

Puts today's "disasters" into perspective and let's hope we never repeat these mistakes again! Although our concerns that we wouldn't bring in a decent RB & CB quickly may be coming true!
 
I keep forgetting just how bad that referee was.

I just watched the official history of Celtic yesterday on the plane and they state quite clearly on this that Big Jock called Bob Paisley and offered him Dalglish. So not only did we not say "no" to Liverpool but we actively pushed Kenny to them.

Puts today's "disasters" into perspective and let's hope we never repeat these mistakes again! Although our concerns that we wouldn't bring in a decent RB & CB quickly may be coming true!

But Dalglish had already promised Jock one more season when Jock pleaded with him as he needed him, what you were listening to was Stein recommending Dalgliesh to Paisley and ensuring Dalgleish got the right move, after all he had delivered for Jock on his promise of one more year.
 
For the record
"
Dalglish signs his Liverpool contract on 10th of August 1977.

Liverpool had just won the European cup in a 3-1 win over Borussia Monchengladbach but the Reds needed to replace Kevin Keegan, who was leaving for Hamburg SV. Paisley later told Kenny that it wouldn't have mattered if Liverpool hadn't sold Keegan to Germany, Paisley would have still tried to sign Kenny. Manchester United offered Celtic more money for Dalglish, but he had set his heart on Anfield. Bob Paisley had contacted Jock Stein a year earlier when he heard that Dalglish wanted to leave for England, but Stein had said that he was going nowhere. Stein added that Paisley would be the first he would contact, if he couldn’t talk Dalglish out of leaving Celtic. Stein kept his promise even though he was disappointed to be losing a player of this calibre."https://www.lfchistory.net/Articles/Article/842
 

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