Celtic Rustiness, stop start carry-on and struggling to find right formation and a PSG v Bayern Preview

Winning Captains said:
Celtic Rustiness, stop start carry-on and struggling to find right formation and a PSG v Bayern Preview...article by Niall J

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Celtic Rustiness plus PSG v Bayern Preview | The Celtic Star

Celtic Rustiness, stop start carry-on and struggling to find right formation and a PSG v Bayern Preview
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Not trying to detract from what is a genuine attempt to come up with a team line up and a system that works Niall but you started out by saying 'we are now returning to square pegs in round holes' then suggested we play Elhamed a RB (or right sided CB) on the left of a back 3 and play Ajer (who's been playing as a left sided CB for the best part of 4 years) on the right of that back 3.

That imo is the definition of putting 'square pegs in round holes' as your moving an extremely competent RB or right sided CB to the left of a back 3 to accommodate the inclusion of Ajer who we're not even sure would be any better on the right of a back 3 than he was on the left of it.

Your suggestion of a midfield diamond is a good one but would a diamond made up of McGregor, Ntcham, Christie and Moi be able to deal with an opposition who set up with a physical midfield (which we come up against often) or would it end up being overrun as neither of these 4 bhoys are known for their physicality or ability to get stuck into a midfield battle?

In an attacking sense it would certainly lend itself to more fluid quicker attacks but where is it's ability to stand up to the pressure of a physical midfield battle which we so often find ourselves in not just domestically but in Europe too?

I would love to see us go with 2 up top again in fact I think it's a necessity when so many of the teams we're up against tend to sit in and park the bus but that requires better delivery into the box from both wing positions, good quality crossing coming in for the strikers to get on the end of.

So given this is a 3-5-2 set up with a diamond in the middle I'm assuming your still going with Taylor and Frimpong as your WB's but (fuck I'm getting tired listening to myself go on about this now :LOL:) this is more square pegs in round holes as neither of them are WB's. Neither of them have shown the required competency to play that position without it resulting in a negative impact elsewhere on the pitch.

Taylor lacks the required attacking ability/awareness to play this role and Frimpong lacks the required defensive ability/awareness to play it but most importantly neither of them have shown they have the ability to supply sustained quality crosses into the box for those 2 strikers to feed off of. Taylor's crossing has been poor and Frimpong tends to cut in rather than float a cross in so where are those crosses into the box coming from?

I know you've said in the past that they will learn and can be coached into being better WB's but do we really have the time to wait on them getting up to speed and can it even be done? This is a massive season where we need everybody on it and on it now, we can't afford to have others covering for the inadequacies both currently have and there's no time for hand holding in the hope they can learn these skills quickly. So if we want to play with WB's then we will need to sign players capable of it to make it work.

I'm not trying to pick holes in what your saying mate, I know you're only trying to come up with a system and line-up that gets us motoring better. It's something all of us have been racking our brains about lately and are struggling to come up with a solution to but right now I think what your suggesting comes with it's own set of pitfalls.

Maybe it's time we accept that these problems just can't be fixed by moving around the players we already have and that the only solution to them lie in the transfer market. (y)
 
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Great post(y)
Think you're last point is probably spot on Shadow, the transfer market will in the end be key. Certainly take your point on Elhamed being the square peg I argued against further up the field, though I only meant that until the world class left sided central defender who can also deputise at full back, wing back and defensive midfielder is signed:)
Ajer I have every faith is a right sided central defender and has performed well at right back. He's been a left sided central defender for too long it's not a natural position for him. At least I can see a player in Elhamed who can use his left foot and shifting Jullien to the middle would remove his need to engage strikers-especially large ones.
3-5-2 or indeed 3-4-3 would suit most of the team tho I noted Strachan the other night saying he felt the wing back argument could be negated by rotating Forrest and Frimpong as right sided midfielders and a more defensive option on the left in Taylor. I guess O'Neill tried something similar with Agathe or Jackie on one side and Thompson on the other.
I have no massive issues with 4-2-3-1 in certain games, it allows us more patient posession whereby a 3-5-2 we do concede ground and are more open to the counter. I do despair though when in that 4-2-3-1 formation we shift Christie wide right or Forrest wide left then Eddy drops deep and when the balls do get delivered there is no-one there to pounce (one of the most frustrating things from yesterday).
I do admit to having concerns in the combative side of things in midfield as you point out, especially as Lennon likes a physical presence in there anyway so I have no chance of getting what I'd want :) but the game can be pressed without the need to impose physicality by way of old school hard tackling. Brown is rarely doing that at any rate at the moment, that could be getting up to speed but I'd rather have more mobility to press and nick posession back and leave Brown out when we're playing packed defences, or if Lenny wishes to stick with that type of player perhaps the younger legs of Soro would at least keep up with the pace of play when we are countered.
What I do agree fully though is we are all racking brains to come up with a system to suit and there might be more need for new faces than I thought at the start of the season.
 
Shadow2 said:
Not trying to detract from what is a genuine attempt to come up with a team line up and a system that works Niall but you started out by saying 'we are now returning to square pegs in round holes' then suggested we play Elhamed a RB (or right sided CB) on the left of a back 3 and play Ajer (who's been playing as a left sided CB for the best part of 4 years) on the right of that back 3.

That imo is the definition of putting 'square pegs in round holes' as your moving an extremely competent RB or right sided CB to the left of a back 3 to accommodate the inclusion of Ajer who we're not even sure would be any better on the right of a back 3 than he was on the left of it.

Your suggestion of a midfield diamond is a good one but would a diamond made up of McGregor, Ntcham, Christie and Moi be able to deal with an opposition who set up with a physical midfield (which we come up against often) or would it end up being overrun as neither of these 4 bhoys are known for their physicality or ability to get stuck into a midfield battle?

In an attacking sense it would certainly lend itself to more fluid quicker attacks but where is it's ability to stand up to the pressure of a physical midfield battle which we so often find ourselves in not just domestically but in Europe too?

I would love to see us go with 2 up top again in fact I think it's a necessity when so many of the teams we're up against tend to sit in and park the bus but that requires better delivery into the box from both wing positions, good quality crossing coming in for the strikers to get on the end of.

So given this is a 3-5-2 set up with a diamond in the middle I'm assuming your still going with Taylor and Frimpong as your WB's but (fuck I'm getting tired listening to myself go on about this now :LOL:) this is more square pegs in round holes as neither of them are WB's. Neither of them have shown the required competency to play that position without it resulting in a negative impact elsewhere on the pitch.

Taylor lacks the required attacking ability/awareness to play this role and Frimpong lacks the required defensive ability/awareness to play it but most importantly neither of them have shown they have the ability to supply sustained quality crosses into the box for those 2 strikers to feed off of. Taylor's crossing has been poor and Frimpong tends to cut in rather than float a cross in so where are those crosses into the box coming from?

I know you've said in the past that they will learn and can be coached into being better WB's but do we really have the time to wait on them getting up to speed and can it even be done? This is a massive season where we need everybody on it and on it now, we can't afford to have others covering for the inadequacies both currently have and there's no time for hand holding in the hope they can learn these skills quickly. So if we want to play with WB's then we will need to sign players capable of it to make it work.

I'm not trying to pick holes in what your saying mate, I know you're only trying to come up with a system and line-up that gets us motoring better. It's something all of us have been racking our brains about lately and are struggling to come up with a solution to but right now I think what your suggesting comes with it's own set of pitfalls.

Maybe it's time we accept that these problems just can't be fixed by moving around the players we already have and that the only solution to them lie in the transfer market. (y)
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Niall J said:
Great post(y)
Think you're last point is probably spot on Shadow, the transfer market will in the end be key. Certainly take your point on Elhamed being the square peg I argued against further up the field, though I only meant that until the world class left sided central defender who can also deputise at full back, wing back and defensive midfielder is signed:)
Ajer I have every faith is a right sided central defender and has performed well at right back. He's been a left sided central defender for too long it's not a natural position for him. At least I can see a player in Elhamed who can use his left foot and shifting Jullien to the middle would remove his need to engage strikers-especially large ones.
3-5-2 or indeed 3-4-3 would suit most of the team tho I noted Strachan the other night saying he felt the wing back argument could be negated by rotating Forrest and Frimpong as right sided midfielders and a more defensive option on the left in Taylor. I guess O'Neill tried something similar with Agathe or Jackie on one side and Thompson on the other.
I have no massive issues with 4-2-3-1 in certain games, it allows us more patient posession whereby a 3-5-2 we do concede ground and are more open to the counter. I do despair though when in that 4-2-3-1 formation we shift Christie wide right or Forrest wide left then Eddy drops deep and when the balls do get delivered there is no-one there to pounce (one of the most frustrating things from yesterday).
I do admit to having concerns in the combative side of things in midfield as you point out, especially as Lennon likes a physical presence in there anyway so I have no chance of getting what I'd want :) but the game can be pressed without the need to impose physicality by way of old school hard tackling. Brown is rarely doing that at any rate at the moment, that could be getting up to speed but I'd rather have more mobility to press and nick posession back and leave Brown out when we're playing packed defences, or if Lenny wishes to stick with that type of player perhaps the younger legs of Soro would at least keep up with the pace of play when we are countered.
What I do agree fully though is we are all racking brains to come up with a system to suit and there might be more need for new faces than I thought at the start of the season.
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Both make great points and valid arguments, but the other one thing that's been missing is the one-touch pass and move. We have at least 5 players who can pass the ball at pace and quickly transition, but even they are falling prey to taking two, three and even 4 touches. It just slows everything down and allows opponents to retain or regain their shape.

The other feature of note is the distance between our boys when we're playing from the back. There were several times recently when our centre backs are taking the ball from Barkas on the 6-yard line and Broonie's on the D. That leaves 20-25 yards between the next two centre mids and that's just not great when you want to play triangles and move the opponents about.

There's also an issue with everything going into Eddy's feet and then him being instantly surrounded by two or three defenders. Eddy isn't half bad at running onto balls and that's where wee Jamesie (and likely Moi) is most effective too. Playing into feet is fine if there's a willing runner or second-man up top to play off against, but it doesn't leave a whole lot of options when you're isolated up there and having to create something yourself.
 
Spherical Planet said:
There's also an issue with everything going into Eddy's feet and then him being instantly surrounded by two or three defenders. Eddy isn't half bad at running onto balls and that's where wee Jamesie (and likely Moi) is most effective too. Playing into feet is fine if there's a willing runner or second-man up top to play off against, but it doesn't leave a whole lot of options when you're isolated up there and having to create something yourself.
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that’s why we need two up front, if there’s 3 defenders around Eddie there’s space for someone else, we’ve all been calling for it for weeks, why can’t Lennon see that? the team was flying after last Xmas with 2 up front, scoring for fun, you can’t win games if you don’t score, my blood pressure can’t take much more of this 83mins till we score stuff🤣
 
Spherical Planet said:
Both make great points and valid arguments, but the other one thing that's been missing is the one-touch pass and move. We have at least 5 players who can pass the ball at pace and quickly transition, but even they are falling prey to taking two, three and even 4 touches. It just slows everything down and allows opponents to retain or regain their shape.

The other feature of note is the distance between our boys when we're playing from the back. There were several times recently when our centre backs are taking the ball from Barkas on the 6-yard line and Broonie's on the D. That leaves 20-25 yards between the next two centre mids and that's just not great when you want to play triangles and move the opponents about.

There's also an issue with everything going into Eddy's feet and then him being instantly surrounded by two or three defenders. Eddy isn't half bad at running onto balls and that's where wee Jamesie (and likely Moi) is most effective too. Playing into feet is fine if there's a willing runner or second-man up top to play off against, but it doesn't leave a whole lot of options when you're isolated up there and having to create something yourself.
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Fair shout SP. I wonder how much the stop start nature of the league to date has stopped us geting into our rhythm just yet when it comes to extra touches.
In terms of receiving the ball from defenders it doesn't help that Broony is a bit slower on the turn now.
I'd think Calmac taking the ball and turning as sharply as he does then passing on the turn and moving to be available to receive it back further up the field may be worth considering.
Moi seems to go into the same postitions as Eddy. Moi as a natural right footer cuts inside and Eddy seems to prefer to drop into the same area (he rarely does it on Forrest's side) we appear a bit lop sided in that regard.
I guess thats why Christie moves more to Forrest's side but with him being left footed he has to take an extra touch to turn back onto his left foot.
I think Ajeti will make a difference he's a demanding footballer, can take it into feet but wants service as he moves back into the box. When he's up to speed those balls acroos the box or needing flicks at front post and back post will be picked up. Never been so certain of a striker for years than signing this guy. The real deal no doubt.
He'll want quick passing once he's held the ball up. McGregor pushing from deep will drive the team up the field faster and Ntcham and Christie can play ahead. One gives guile and one perpetual motion. If Moi plays between the two or even just ahead the options could be amazing. But as Shadow pointed out we'd lack the bite Broony brings in midfield and we'd need genuine attacking and defending capabilities in equal measure from the wing backs something Taylor and Frimpong don't quite have balanced just yet.
 
Niall J said:
Great post(y)
Think you're last point is probably spot on Shadow, the transfer market will in the end be key. Certainly take your point on Elhamed being the square peg I argued against further up the field, though I only meant that until the world class left sided central defender who can also deputise at full back, wing back and defensive midfielder is signed:)
Ajer I have every faith is a right sided central defender and has performed well at right back. He's been a left sided central defender for too long it's not a natural position for him. At least I can see a player in Elhamed who can use his left foot and shifting Jullien to the middle would remove his need to engage strikers-especially large ones.
3-5-2 or indeed 3-4-3 would suit most of the team tho I noted Strachan the other night saying he felt the wing back argument could be negated by rotating Forrest and Frimpong as right sided midfielders and a more defensive option on the left in Taylor. I guess O'Neill tried something similar with Agathe or Jackie on one side and Thompson on the other.
I have no massive issues with 4-2-3-1 in certain games, it allows us more patient posession whereby a 3-5-2 we do concede ground and are more open to the counter. I do despair though when in that 4-2-3-1 formation we shift Christie wide right or Forrest wide left then Eddy drops deep and when the balls do get delivered there is no-one there to pounce (one of the most frustrating things from yesterday).
I do admit to having concerns in the combative side of things in midfield as you point out, especially as Lennon likes a physical presence in there anyway so I have no chance of getting what I'd want :) but the game can be pressed without the need to impose physicality by way of old school hard tackling. Brown is rarely doing that at any rate at the moment, that could be getting up to speed but I'd rather have more mobility to press and nick posession back and leave Brown out when we're playing packed defences, or if Lenny wishes to stick with that type of player perhaps the younger legs of Soro would at least keep up with the pace of play when we are countered.
What I do agree fully though is we are all racking brains to come up with a system to suit and there might be more need for new faces than I thought at the start of the season.
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''Certainly take your point on Elhamed being the square peg I argued against further up the field, though I only meant that until the world class left sided central defender who can also deputise at full back, wing back and defensive midfielder is signed :)''

☝And therein lies the problem mate, wishing for magical unicorns! :LOL:(y)

Seriously though we're leaving ourselves vulnerable at the back and overcomplicating things elsewhere in the team in order to play a 3-5-2 or 3-4-3 system when the reality is we simply don't have the necessary personnel to play either right now!

I think what baffles me about this whole thing is that we're putting the cart before the horse. What we should be saying is 'here are the players we have to work with, what system works best with these players' but instead we're saying 'here's the system we want to play, how can we shoehorn players into positions to make it work.' It just seems like we've got things back to front with this!

No matter how much we want to see either of these systems it will continue to rely on 'square pegs in round holes' and result in erratic defensive displays until we bring in a left sided CB and 2 proper WB's that can make it work because what we have right now will get found out the minute we come up against the first team capable of mounting a half decent attack.

As for Elhamed or Ajer playing as the right sided CB my question would be this.....Who out of these 2 is the natural choice and most competent to play there? If the answer is Elhamed then moving him to the left and playing Ajer there instead is just nuts imo? Why make a simple straight forward choice needlessly messy and overcomplicated.

And as you know already Niall I agree 100% that left sided CB is not Ajer's natural position, mainly because I don't think he's a defender 😜(y)

My concern about the lack of physicality in the midfield you've went with is not just about the lack of old school tackling ability but the ability of that 4 to handle the rough and tumble of dealing with more physical midfield opponents. Look at Cluj, Copenhagen and even the huns to an extent, all inferior teams ability wise but all managed to turn us over because they physically dominated us.

Are any of these 4 bhoys physically up to holding off or getting past a midfield full of hammer throwers who rely on their physicality to outmuscle and bundle their opponents off the ball. My worry is if we can't mix it with these type of teams when we have Broony (or that type of player in there) then where does that leave us if we go with a less combative midfield because we come up against this type of team quite a lot?

Aye maybe sacrifice Broony (or any DM) for more mobility in the games where teams park the bus but if we try this against teams with a big physical midfield presence then it's a definite risk because if we can't intercept and distribute the ball quick enough they will likely just run over the top of that midfield 4.

Sorry for yet another lengthy post mate, will try harder not to waffle on too much in future.....honest! :LOL:(y)
 
One thing worries me right now. If Broonie plays poorly it matters not a jot to Lenny. He will still be 1st pick. Loyalty is one thing but blind loyalty is gonna come back and bite you. Yes the season has barely begun but we can all see that Broonie (up till now) has played like a second string player. We cannot afford passengers and right now i feel that his place is cemented because of his "aura". Giving dirty looks or screaming in players faces aint gonna cut it. We need performances. Celtic will be here long after Broonie is gone and he undoubtedly been an awesome player for us but right now he's giving a good impression as a spent force. I hope I'm wrong and the " Broonie camp" will give me pelters but ffs at some point we need to move onwards.
 
Shadow2 said:
''Certainly take your point on Elhamed being the square peg I argued against further up the field, though I only meant that until the world class left sided central defender who can also deputise at full back, wing back and defensive midfielder is signed :)''

☝And therein lies the problem mate, wishing for magical unicorns! :LOL:(y)

Seriously though we're leaving ourselves vulnerable at the back and overcomplicating things elsewhere in the team in order to play a 3-5-2 or 3-4-3 system when the reality is we simply don't have the necessary personnel to play either right now!

I think what baffles me about this whole thing is that we're putting the cart before the horse. What we should be saying is 'here are the players we have to work with, what system works best with these players' but instead we're saying 'here's the system we want to play, how can we shoehorn players into positions to make it work.' It just seems like we've got things back to front with this!

No matter how much we want to see either of these systems it will continue to rely on 'square pegs in round holes' and result in erratic defensive displays until we bring in a left sided CB and 2 proper WB's that can make it work because what we have right now will get found out the minute we come up against the first team capable of mounting a half decent attack.

As for Elhamed or Ajer playing as the right sided CB my question would be this.....Who out of these 2 is the natural choice and most competent to play there? If the answer is Elhamed then moving him to the left and playing Ajer there instead is just nuts imo? Why make a simple straight forward choice needlessly messy and overcomplicated.

And as you know already Niall I agree 100% that left sided CB is not Ajer's natural position, mainly because I don't think he's a defender 😜(y)

My concern about the lack of physicality in the midfield you've went with is not just about the lack of old school tackling ability but the ability of that 4 to handle the rough and tumble of dealing with more physical midfield opponents. Look at Cluj, Copenhagen and even the huns to an extent, all inferior teams ability wise but all managed to turn us over because they physically dominated us.

Are any of these 4 bhoys physically up to holding off or getting past a midfield full of hammer throwers who rely on their physicality to outmuscle and bundle their opponents off the ball. My worry is if we can't mix it with these type of teams when we have Broony (or that type of player in there) then where does that leave us if we go with a less combative midfield because we come up against this type of team quite a lot?

Aye maybe sacrifice Broony (or any DM) for more mobility in the games where teams park the bus but if we try this against teams with a big physical midfield presence then it's a definite risk because if we can't intercept and distribute the ball quick enough they will likely just run over the top of that midfield 4.

Sorry for yet another lengthy post mate, will try harder not to waffle on too much in future.....honest! :LOL:(y)
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Ffs when is volume 2 comin oot !🤣🤣🤣
 
michael duffy said:
Look at Ajer flying down the right,on the blindside, scoring a peach with his RIGHTpeg!!!!!
playing as a left sided CB! sorry cannae let it go 🍺 🥳

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Aye but how many times has he fekd up playing on the left and commits himself sliding in with his right leg across a player? I like the guy but he needs to be played in a more natural position for him. One size does not fit all as they say.
 
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