Director of Football

Director of football! Jock Brown, mibbies???

Understand the principle of it n maybe I'm old fashioned but I want the Celtic manager in COMPLETE control of every aspect aspect of all football matters, killed me when players are getting signed, like Arzani etc. which the manager obviously has no say in the process. Football matters are part of the managers brief.
Can see the benefits of a buffer between the manager n the boardroom but could only possibly work if the board and manager have complete trust and respect of the go-between. In the Wim the Tim year was Davie Hay not the director of football as well as chief scout for first 6 months or did I dream that?
 
well said Ben,the era of managers having total control are about gone,even guardiola has to say to someone,i need this or that,same as klopp,DoF is as important as the "head coach" so any appointment needs to be spot on,who is available is the problem,although i'm sure there would be no shortage of applicants HH
Hasn't that always been the case though, MD?

Even the late, great Manager was held to some sort of account by the board to some degree.......Celtic Pools anyone.

Celtic and the dead club bucked the trend for almost a century by potentially giving jobs for life, but that had changed by the time the 80's came round and many clubs now change managers as often as they change kits.

As events of the last week have shown, that's not a one-way street. Managers (and their backroom staff) will pursue their own ambitions and bolster their own bank account. I don't see where a DoF can alter that scenario?

Whoever any potential DoF is, he/she is still going to be a placeman/woman for the board and their agenda is going to be driven by the values and philosophies of the board.

I work in employment mediation. One of the extremely common features is that there appears to be a major disconnect between the frontline employees and senior management/trustees/boards. The decision to take disciplinary action is generally undertaken by the upper end of middle management and therein lies the problem.

Up until the point of mediation (and often right up until the Tibunal itself) the head honchos are invariably unaware of how compromised they may be because of the poor and personal interpretation of codes of conduct by HR and lower management. This is the reality of having too many tiers and when you throw other variable factors into the melting pot (fans, media, players etc...) then it only adds to the confusion!

As stated previously, I'm sure there are many great examples of this system that can be cited, but by saying that it's an effective system in The States or Mainland Europe and is therefore easily transferable, is like saying that Scotland can emulate the Nordic economic infrastructure should we ever gain independence.

The theory and reality are two completely different things. The various Nordic models have been operational for centuries and are designed to be self-sustaining economic models. It's as much cultural, as it is economic.
 
Hasn't that always been the case though, MD?

Even the late, great Manager was held to some sort of account by the board to some degree.......Celtic Pools anyone.

Celtic and the dead club bucked the trend for almost a century by potentially giving jobs for life, but that had changed by the time the 80's came round and many clubs now change managers as often as they change kits.

As events of the last week have shown, that's not a one-way street. Managers (and their backroom staff) will pursue their own ambitions and bolster their own bank account. I don't see where a DoF can alter that scenario?

Whoever any potential DoF is, he/she is still going to be a placeman/woman for the board and their agenda is going to be driven by the values and philosophies of the board.

I work in employment mediation. One of the extremely common features is that there appears to be a major disconnect between the frontline employees and senior management/trustees/boards. The decision to take disciplinary action is generally undertaken by the upper end of middle management and therein lies the problem.

Up until the point of mediation (and often right up until the Tibunal itself) the head honchos are invariably unaware of how compromised they may be because of the poor and personal interpretation of codes of conduct by HR and lower management. This is the reality of having too many tiers and when you throw other variable factors into the melting pot (fans, media, players etc...) then it only adds to the confusion!

As stated previously, I'm sure there are many great examples of this system that can be cited, but by saying that it's an effective system in The States or Mainland Europe and is therefore easily transferable, is like saying that Scotland can emulate the Nordic economic infrastructure should we ever gain independence.

The theory and reality are two completely different things. The various Nordic models have been operational for centuries and are designed to be self-sustaining economic models. It's as much cultural, as it is economic.
SP, you’ve made some good points.

The cultural issue isn’t really an issue anymore. Maybe 10-15 years ago it might have been. But most of the top clubs across Europe now have a DoF, and it’s even becoming more common in England. One of the Mourinho’s parting shots with ManU when he was let go was that he didn’t have the support that a DoF would have given him(!!!).

And part of the whole point of a DoF is that they ensure continuity even when managers change every couple years. I mean, look across the river and see how that club has rotated its entire squad every time they change managers. It’s not productive nor is it financially prudent. And that is not uncommon in places without a DoF. Having a DoF means that the structure and philosophy of the club and the playing style remains even when the manager/coach leaves. It’s also what allows clubs the opportunity to promote coaches like Guardiola to 1st team manager rather than spend a ton of money bringing in an outsider.

Also, one thing that has been lost in the discussion is that a DoF is not just a glorified title for head of recruitment. Player recruitment is part of the job description, but the job is a lot bigger than that.

Lastly, while a lot of clubs even in England have DoF’s, they are almost always low profile hires who stick around for a very long time. Someone on another thread mentioned David Moyes as a possibility, and that may or may not be a good idea (I honestly have no idea how he’d do as he wouldn’t be in direct charge of the players or the matchday tactics, and that’s all we have to judge him by). That would be a VERY high profile signing by industry standards. Another really good candidate, though totally unrealistic as he’d never accept, is Sir Alex Ferguson. I mean, he basically was the DoF at ManU for two decades with the amount of power and control he had and the influence on EVERYTHING that went on there in football operations. Getting him to come in with the understanding that he’s not the manager and wouldn’t have any direct oversight on the 1st team would be a perfect job for him at this stage of his career if he would ever accept another role.

But the idea here is that whoever the DoF is should be well steeped in the culture of the club, or the culture the board is trying to create anyway. And think of it as a cross between a CEO of the football operations (no sales, marketing, or admin departments) and a philosopher king.

There’s a good reason most of the top clubs around the world now have a DoF — because it works regardless of local culture or customs. The management of clubs has become so much more complex than it used to be that having a single person coordinate everything just makes a lot of sense, and there’s two very good reasons clubs don’t allow their managers to have the same control anymore - (1) managers come and go way too frequently, and (2) clubs want the manager to focus on the 1st team results and not get distracted with scouting, academy, the women’s team, etc etc.
 
SP, you’ve made some good points.

The cultural issue isn’t really an issue anymore. Maybe 10-15 years ago it might have been. But most of the top clubs across Europe now have a DoF, and it’s even becoming more common in England. One of the Mourinho’s parting shots with ManU when he was let go was that he didn’t have the support that a DoF would have given him(!!!).

And part of the whole point of a DoF is that they ensure continuity even when managers change every couple years. I mean, look across the river and see how that club has rotated its entire squad every time they change managers. It’s not productive nor is it financially prudent. And that is not uncommon in places without a DoF. Having a DoF means that the structure and philosophy of the club and the playing style remains even when the manager/coach leaves. It’s also what allows clubs the opportunity to promote coaches like Guardiola to 1st team manager rather than spend a ton of money bringing in an outsider.

Also, one thing that has been lost in the discussion is that a DoF is not just a glorified title for head of recruitment. Player recruitment is part of the job description, but the job is a lot bigger than that.

Lastly, while a lot of clubs even in England have DoF’s, they are almost always low profile hires who stick around for a very long time. Someone on another thread mentioned David Moyes as a possibility, and that may or may not be a good idea (I honestly have no idea how he’d do as he wouldn’t be in direct charge of the players or the matchday tactics, and that’s all we have to judge him by). That would be a VERY high profile signing by industry standards. Another really good candidate, though totally unrealistic as he’d never accept, is Sir Alex Ferguson. I mean, he basically was the DoF at ManU for two decades with the amount of power and control he had and the influence on EVERYTHING that went on there in football operations. Getting him to come in with the understanding that he’s not the manager and wouldn’t have any direct oversight on the 1st team would be a perfect job for him at this stage of his career if he would ever accept another role.

But the idea here is that whoever the DoF is should be well steeped in the culture of the club, or the culture the board is trying to create anyway. And think of it as a cross between a CEO of the football operations (no sales, marketing, or admin departments) and a philosopher king.

There’s a good reason most of the top clubs around the world now have a DoF — because it works regardless of local culture or customs. The management of clubs has become so much more complex than it used to be that having a single person coordinate everything just makes a lot of sense, and there’s two very good reasons clubs don’t allow their managers to have the same control anymore - (1) managers come and go way too frequently, and (2) clubs want the manager to focus on the 1st team results and not get distracted with scouting, academy, the women’s team, etc etc.
I've gave it some thought, Ben, and I'm coming around to the idea.

I do think that it's important that any potential DoF has a connection to the club. I also think that they have to be their own person and have the character to say "no" to both the manager and the board when the situation arises.

My change of heart is based on the need to adapt, as well as many of the fine points presented throughout this thread. Having watched the performance of Ajax last night and also the development of comparable European teams, it would appear to be a role (that if made properly independent) can add real value in many areas of the club.

I strongly advocated for BR on the basis that he applied a philosophy throughout the whole playing structure of Celtic. That's great in principle when the players adopt the good points of that philosophy; unfortunately - it also means that the whole structure is based on Plan A and little else.

As long as the board don't see the role wholly as a further layer of insulation and at least consult with the manager on any potential appointment, then I'm definitely open to the possibility.
 
The DOF plan has great merit IMHO. Implementing it would have saved the grief of the Rodgers debacle. Presumably Rodgers would have been hired by/with the DOF as partners and responsibility for player decisons would have been split between the two men. Rather than dealing with a bean counter like Lawwell he would be working with a fellow football professional, part of whose responsibility would be dealing with the bean counters.

Celtic likes long term plans and I think the Board could well get behind this.

One thing: The DOF has to be hired FIRST and be the key or one of the two key decision makers on the manager hire. Otherwise the politics will get worse not better. One has to have hire/fire over the other. Or else things dont work well....this is universal in American sports.

While a manager such as Rodgers will use his time between jobs to scout players that he can bring, once he has been on the job for a while his recruiting ideas will of necessity become stale if he is doing his job maximizing the talent already there. A DOF can be on the job of supervising recruiting 24/7 so that when we inevitably get plundered for our best performers by the EPL etc, as often as not with no warning, we have plans in place for continuity
 
Headlines suggesting names today.
Did not need to look up Congleton beforehand as he was so well reported!

I hope someone in Celtic's I.T. at least suggest using this thing called the internet to research potential candidates for the job.
Would not accept any human individuals word as fact beyond a doubt, and people deserve chances and sometimes just don't fit into a workplace, but for this role! such an important role to read between the lines for a trend a insight from actual fans experience has to be a worthwhile effort before signing up someone, surely!

Having been involved with PLC's and "I.T." since 1990, I have enough experience to never assume even basic research is always done or to ever dismiss the theory that BS can still triumph over brains

Genuinely never heard of before, not read but did read the headlines of a few players signed up, and that he appears to have been out of work for a while, so at least one bell sounded off within a short paragraph.
Hoping for success but likely a but too cynical too read impartially at the moment.
Maybe someone wants to do part of Celtics job for them, unless of course the 'big men' at Celtic have no time for actual fans opinions.
http://westbrom.com/forum/index.php?topic=18459.0
 
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Im sure Celtic prefer the tumble system better

just randomly pull out a number and give him 20k a year

here pal you got chosen

we have hunters a money to give away to the lucky tumble draw winner

nay checks just pure spin the barrel and your the new dog
 
At the end of the day a DOF at us would be subservient to Lawell. So what really changed if every decision is Lawell’s? Could it be filling another expensive suit that has no power?

If that’s the case, use all of the salary to up our scouting because whoever comes in won’t be able to do fuck all unless Lawell agrees

I may be in favour of this post if it had the power to negotiate and determine who comes and at what price. This will never happen so to me it’s a cosmetic attempt to deflect attention.

Why would we want to add to the wage bill for a post that is no more than a scout?

Can’t see the point of it if it’s a case of, you need to ask Peter.

Can anybody else see the need to have a guy who would be tied up and unable to make decisions?
 
At the end of the day a DOF at us would be subservient to Lawell. So what really changed if every decision is Lawell’s? Could it be filling another expensive suit that has no power?

If that’s the case, use all of the salary to up our scouting because whoever comes in won’t be able to do fuck all unless Lawell agrees

I may be in favour of this post if it had the power to negotiate and determine who comes and at what price. This will never happen so to me it’s a cosmetic attempt to deflect attention.

Why would we want to add to the wage bill for a post that is no more than a scout?

Can’t see the point of it if it’s a case of, you need to ask Peter.

Can anybody else see the need to have a guy who would be tied up and unable to make decisions?
Assumption 1 is flawed

Assumption 2 is mute

Assumption 3 requires risk assessment

Assumption 4 contempt

Let them do the job they are qualified to do. They are trying to add value not pour it down the pan with the old tumbola

Trust them they make money and win trophies and anybody who doesn't add value gets the hook pronto

its about value

not money
 
At the end of the day a DOF at us would be subservient to Lawell. So what really changed if every decision is Lawell’s? Could it be filling another expensive suit that has no power?

If that’s the case, use all of the salary to up our scouting because whoever comes in won’t be able to do fuck all unless Lawell agrees

I may be in favour of this post if it had the power to negotiate and determine who comes and at what price. This will never happen so to me it’s a cosmetic attempt to deflect attention.

Why would we want to add to the wage bill for a post that is no more than a scout?

Can’t see the point of it if it’s a case of, you need to ask Peter.

Can anybody else see the need to have a guy who would be tied up and unable to make decisions?

Sadly, you're almost certainly correct, I forgot that likely reality in wonder for a moment.

But I do think Congleton made matters worse than needs be.
 
Yeah I agree that whoever we go for can’t be a yes man and has to be allowed to put in his own ideas.

For me this is where Dermot Desmond has to put his foot down and tell Lawwell to know his place.

This window is another example of poor planning. Peter Lawwell has to control everything, but at the same time everything takes an age, and he seems incapable of working on various deals at the same time.

Nicky Hammond was very highly regarded at Reading. He was a bit of a visionary for them, and set up their academy long before other clubs.

He was also brilliant with recruiting young players, including a lot of players from Ireland.

Which is huge for us, especially with the cross-border rule. He could be ideal for this.

West Brom seemed a bit of a nightmare, - they are a bit of a shambles though, and working with Tony Pulis must be torture because he is a dictator, and he puts more emphasis on height and strength,than he does on ability.
 
Sadly, you're almost certainly correct, I forgot that likely reality in wonder for a moment.

But I do think Congleton made matters worse than needs be.

I just don’t think paying a guy to come up with proposals that he has no power to make happen just extends the time we take to do anything. We take an age to get players this would be another case of conflict if the guy keeps getting told, I decide.

Value TET? What value is there having a bidding donkey or worse a guy who fights a losing corner?

We need a series of scouts not a high profile post that at the end of the day can get fuck all done unless it’s Lawells idea?

It’s not the post I am against. It’s the lists ability to make changes or bring players in.

Lawell handles fees, wages, contracts, negotiations. What does he do all day if he isn’t doing that? The disco lights are in, although to be fair, the pitch is a shambles, maybe get him out there cutting and tending the grass.

He won’t release control. He might need to cut back his bonus if his portfolio isn’t as extensive and he might need to unplug his heated driveway three days a week.

The only way a DOF would work is if we reshuffled the board, Lawell left and let the guy be The DIRECTOR of Football and not another yes man.
 
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