Lawwell's step towards mediocrity - Celtic's European star is descending

[Niall J]

you cant plan without the budgets clear, is what im saying, if the selling club know that if celtic want a player then lower EPL clubs might fancy him for more, and they will hold out as long as possible to get best deal

For some reason Niall you are forgetting the problems with planning surround money mate

Ours is limited And we can get less than adequate players asap for positions but that doesn't solve the CL qualifying problem

Solving that problem requires excessive bids

Which celtic dont have resources to do.

The wage budgets dictate the limits

And that seriously hinders planning when selling club want best deal and when window is open they won't sanction sales for high grade players

And to add to that EPL clubs can stymie deal by offering double last minute

If you assume planning revolves around competing with EPL clubs who as you say Stymie last minute deals you'd be right. We haven't competed in that particular field since Sutton and Hartson. EPL clubs are of little or no consequence to us.

 

[TET]

If you assume planning revolves around competing with EPL clubs who as you say Stymie last minute deals you'd be right. We haven't competed in that particular field since Sutton and Hartson. EPL clubs are of little or no consequence to us.

If we want CL quality players then they are our competition for sure

We cant afford the players they have

A Hartson and Sutton Quality player these days would exceed 30 Million and 100K per week

We cant buy their players but you can bet your life that if they hear we paying 10 million and offering 30 k for somebody then they might juts offer more coz we rate him that highly

And that hinders planning coz the planning is hindered by the window being open for weeks yet

And the selling clubs are usually EL clubs at least and need that dude for their campaign hopes.


Thats what blocks the get them in early

Agents and Selling clubs

Not the planning side

When Celtic wants a player that club instantly know they want him for CL

And well thats Champions league prices mate

But Celtic cant afford to waste millions every deal when the competition gets 100 million subsidy in the market

Thats why value added is essential outside subsidised clubs and thats what hinders executing the plans in timely fashion

 

[Niall J]

If we want CL quality players then they are our competition for sure

We cant afford the players they have

A Hartson and Sutton Quality player these days would exceed 30 Million and 100K per week

We cant buy their players but you can bet your life that if they hear we paying 10 million and offering 30 k for somebody then they might juts offer more coz we rate him that highly

And that hinders planning coz the planning is hindered by the window being open for weeks yet

And the selling clubs are usually EL clubs at least and need that dude for their campaign hopes.


Thats what blocks the get them in early

Agents and Selling clubs

Not the planning side

When Celtic wants a player that club instantly know they want him for CL

And well thats Champions league prices mate

But Celtic cant afford to waste millions every deal when the competition gets 100 million subsidy in the market

Thats why value added is essential outside subsidised clubs and thats what hinders executing the plans in timely fashion

We coach value now TET we eek that value out, we don't compete direcly with EPL we look elesewhere, at least we did. . Take VVD, Wanyama, take Edouard even Dembele or Tierney. Now its Bayo, Christie and McGegor. We take em rough around the edges and we develop them to sell to EPL or big leagues. The planning is finding them, not the finances in competing with them. The EPL days are long, long gone pal.
The planning is underused/under exploited markets. That make it all the more important to have that structure to formulate the plan 2/4 windows ahead.
Since John Park moved on and BR brought in his own man we lost track of that a bit, and now we need a properly recruited structure to get it back. Within a budget we choose. We are not competing with EPL or La Liga clubs we're producing for them. In the meantime we need to keep an eye on our job. Getting into the group stages by getting these bodies signed in advance and ready to go and a coaching, scouting, recruuitment structure around them.

 

[Bridie Bhoy]

I think we all know about and fully understand the disparity in spending power between us and low level EPL clubs. This means that we have to be even smarter and better prepared for transfer windows in order to do as well as possible.

In the end the last transfer window was a success but many of the signings came in fairly late on after we were eliminated from the CL qualifiers.

The problem many of us have is that our management repeatedly gave false assurances that we would get players in for positions that we obviously needed cover in and then every time we failed to deliver and jeopardized our chances unnecessarily by playing folk out of position.

No one is arguing for breaking the bank. I would have been delighted to have made exactly the same signings but just got several of them in a few weeks earlier. Even when we identifed good targets we still faffed about closing the deals - El Hamed could have signed weeks before, same for Taylor, Boli & Jullien and they could have practiced with their new colleagues much earlier. Then, and only then, IF we were successful in qualifying for the Champions League group stages do you pull out the file of the more expensive targets and start to try to bring one or two of them.

In business management it is imperative that you properly plan all aspects of operations, and have different action plans in the event of different scenarios occurring. At the heart of this is sensible and workable financial management but for a football club the playing side has to be a priority - especially when this has such a dramatic impact on our annual revenue levels and P+Ls. Deliberately hamstringing ourselves by missing signing deadlines is not smart in my opinion so hope it doesn't happen yet again next season.

 

[TET]

We coach value now TET we eek that value out, we don't compete direcly with EPL we look elesewhere, at least we did. . Take VVD, Wanyama, take Edouard even Dembele or Tierney. Now its Bayo, Christie and McGegor. We take em rough around the edges and we develop them to sell to EPL or big leagues. The planning is finding them, not the finances in competing with them. The EPL days are long, long gone pal.
The planning is underused/under exploited markets. That make it all the more important to have that structure to formulate the plan 2/4 windows ahead.
Since John Park moved on and BR brought in his own man we lost track of that a bit, and now we need a properly recruited structure to get it back. Within a budget we choose. We are not competing with EPL or La Liga clubs we're producing for them. In the meantime we need to keep an eye on our job. Getting into the group stages by getting these bodies signed in advance and ready to go and a coaching, scouting, recruuitment structure around them.

I think thats why we have brought in value added youth mate

The planning might look out window but thats coz rodgers was shit at spotting proper quality in the hidden markets

But those players Lennon bought are still not good enough for CL qualification over 4 legs against champions across Europe.

To solve the get into CL every season for the prestige side, requires competing in the markets for first team ready players for key positions

And sadly we blew it against Cluj by playing guff on the night with better players.

So the Diala method gets good players at value prices but its not good enough for cl

The rodgers method burns club financially trying to compete

The lennon method so far seems better compromise between two.

Also fact we spotted VVD Forster and Wanyama at risky stage suggests lennon can spot a player others won't risk

I think lennon is the right man

But the planning gets harder when you have those players in track record

the selling clubs didn't really get that great deal on those EPL players

So when sniffing by celtic comes you might want to get better deal than Groningen got for vvd which hinders value added going forward and hinders planning as result

Couple that with players on contracts that chew up income already then planning also gets hindered

And on top of that keeping players motivated in a weak league on low wages might be problem when they want to play with their international pals in EPL clubs

Discontent can hinder planning too

just look at mayhem last season when we sold 1 who wanted out but refused the same for 2 others and the manager was trying to get out of dodge

Theses are all big factors that affect planning

But agents and selling clubs are biggest barrier to early execution of plans


But you won't read that in any MSM rag

And very few people want to talk about the occult forces in football today that affect planning

 

[Niall J]

I think thats why we have brought in value added youth mate

The planning might look out window but thats coz rodgers was shit at spotting proper quality in the hidden markets

But those players Lennon bought are still not good enough for CL qualification over 4 legs against champions across Europe.

To solve the get into CL every season for the prestige side, requires competing in the markets for first team ready players for key positions

And sadly we blew it against Cluj by playing guff on the night with better players.

So the Diala method gets good players at value prices but its not good enough for cl

The rodgers method burns club financially trying to compete

The lennon method so far seems better compromise between two.

Also fact we spotted VVD Forster and Wanyama at risky stage suggests lennon can spot a player others won't risk

I think lennon is the right man

But the planning gets harder when you have those players in track record

the selling clubs didn't really get that great deal on those EPL players

So when sniffing by celtic comes you might want to get better deal than Groningen got for vvd which hinders value added going forward and hinders planning as result

Couple that with players on contracts that chew up income already then planning also gets hindered

And on top of that keeping players motivated in a weak league on low wages might be problem when they want to play with their international pals in EPL clubs

Discontent can hinder planning too

just look at mayhem last season when we sold 1 who wanted out but refused the same for 2 others and the manager was trying to get out of dodge

Theses are all big factors that affect planning

But agents and selling clubs are biggest barrier to early execution of plans


But you won't read that in any MSM rag

And very few people want to talk about the occult forces in football today that affect planning

That's starting to get a bit too deep for me TET bit outside my comfort zone occult forces. Agree on the younger ones coming in now, also agree Lennon may just be what we need (though I'd rather Park was beside him). Nice debating with you. Hail hail pal

 

[TET]

My main point is, to get to CL, you need quality players and getting that quality before CL qualifiers starts means they really need be in your team last season already.

no club will sell champions league quality player to Celtic so early in the window without getting more than double his actual value at least.

That means you are limited in your options until near end of window for many many reasons because clubs want best deals they can get and dont care about our CL dreams

 

[TET]

That's starting to get a bit too deep for me TET bit outside my comfort zone occult forces. Agree on the younger ones coming in now, also agree Lennon may just be what we need (though I'd rather Park was beside him). Nice debating with you. Hail hail pal

occult just means hidden

the stuff that affects planning but is beyond the obvious

 

[Hoopy427]

If we try and compete with the big 5 leagues we'll go the way of oldco rather quickly. How much would you say is safe to "gamble" on guaranteed CL football? 2 more £10m players + increase our wages across the board by 15% that's us got no money in the bank and what happens if we miss out in qualifying? Financial disaster.
It also has to be recognised that we're not selling the family silver just to balance the books and keep share holders happy, Dembele, Armstrong and even KT wanted to leave, we obliged and made £50m+ that's good business.
Our financial muscle cannot be compared to the top 5 leagues, truth is they're in a different league. Instead compare our finances to other Scottish teams, in fact multiply the profits of any other team in scotland by 5 and we still blow them all away. The truth is we have a well run club, financially stable and the model is sustainable.
As for our European standing, we were a European power under Stein, when the financial playing fields were pretty level, we had a brief moment in the European sun with O'Neil, other than that we've had some decent runs and some great results but I can't think of many times where we've been expected to get to the later stages of any European tournament.
Given the restraints of our league, champions league qualification should probably be seen as an outstanding achievement rather than an expectation.

Great article and well written as usual Niall, and any artical that inspires a difference of opinion is a good thing I'm sure you agree.

 

[kelly]

My point exactly.

I know i was about to post that and say excellent article again

 

[kelly]

Your point therefore is you believe they are planning. Mine is I don't believe they are or at least haven't been to now. The evidence in qualifiers was fairly damning. Ajer to right back, Bolingoli covered by McGregor. If we've been planning it's been weeks in advance, not structured.
We have a football model seperate from finance that goes CEO-Manager (even though the CEO himself said in Lenny's press conference at appointment that a DOF role was required). We currently have a temp post (without a title) as a DOF or head of recruitment. We waited after BR's exit to allow Congerton to get us some compensation and then went about our business. We employed Hammond late. We were not planning ahead. We may be now. Could be Hammond's role will be extended. Could be he's put a great scouting plan in place from Youth level to First team. Could be we're targetting players well in advance. Could be. Hope so. It would be long overdue.

Going by the silence i would say he's still hanging in the wind ,as there's been no mention of him from the club

 

[Niall J]

If we try and compete with the big 5 leagues we'll go the way of oldco rather quickly. How much would you say is safe to "gamble" on guaranteed CL football? 2 more £10m players + increase our wages across the board by 15% that's us got no money in the bank and what happens if we miss out in qualifying? Financial disaster.
It also has to be recognised that we're not selling the family silver just to balance the books and keep share holders happy, Dembele, Armstrong and even KT wanted to leave, we obliged and made £50m+ that's good business.
Our financial muscle cannot be compared to the top 5 leagues, truth is they're in a different league. Instead compare our finances to other Scottish teams, in fact multiply the profits of any other team in scotland by 5 and we still blow them all away. The truth is we have a well run club, financially stable and the model is sustainable.
As for our European standing, we were a European power under Stein, when the financial playing fields were pretty level, we had a brief moment in the European sun with O'Neil, other than that we've had some decent runs and some great results but I can't think of many times where we've been expected to get to the later stages of any European tournament.
Given the restraints of our league, champions league qualification should probably be seen as an outstanding achievement rather than an expectation.

Great article and well written as usual Niall, and any artical that inspires a difference of opinion is a good thing I'm sure you agree.

Thanks Hoopy for reading and commenting. I certainly don't expect us to try and compete financially with the top four of any of the big 4 or 5 leagues. What I'm after is a structure with players in place by the time the qualifiers kick off. Last year and this year we didn't gamble financially as such we gambled by not having a structure that prepared us not for September when the window closed, but for July when the qualifiers started. There is a chasm betwen CEO to Head coach. There is room for a head of recruitment or a DOF who has a lot of forward planning in place. By September we had a squad I think could compete in Europe. By then it was too late. By that I don't nean winning or last 8 even, I mean getting to a point where we can qualify and take it from there. Last 2 windows we haven't planned properly. We took far too long to react to BR's exit and in my own opinion that could be down to Lawwell stretching himself to thinly micro managing several roles.
As I said earlier there are teams out there who agree a budget and work within in it sometimes 2 years in advance. if we were working to 2 months I'd be surprised. I think finances though important come after a structure. It's not about 2 extra 10million players, it's just about players covering every position, in place to give us a chance at qualifying. The money itself wouldn' buy us the quality guaranteed anyway. An eye for a bargain or 3 might.

 

[Niall J]

Going by the silence i would say he's still hanging in the wind ,as there's been no mention of him from the club

Cheers Kelly.
This is a big moment. The deals for the young players O'Connor and Frimpong may well be Hammond. Also Lennon likes working with him, he's said as much. But will he stay? He's a temp post without a title. He probably came her to re-align a damaged CV from West Brom. If he gets a title and an independent remit I'll believe we are making proper plans. If he goes I'd be worried we won't be serious about such a role having genuine autonomy

 

[Hoopy427]

I would agree completely that a permanent head of recruitment is a necessity. I would guess that Rogers leaving the way he did left the club in a bit of a tail spin and Congerton (or whatever his name was) was still hanging around, so effective talent spotting was probably scuppered by them last season. I'm impressed by the players we have brought in since, albeit too late for CL. I'm also fairly certain that Rogers decided last summer that he was leaving at the first opportunity and completly took his eye off the ball in terms of strengthening the team for the future.
I think we did well to claim the treble and come out of the summer with a stronger team after the management upheaval last year.

 

[Niall J]

I would agree completely that a permanent head of recruitment is a necessity. I would guess that Rogers leaving the way he did left the club in a bit of a tail spin and Congerton (or whatever his name was) was still hanging around, so effective talent spotting was probably scuppered by them last season. I'm impressed by the players we have brought in since, albeit too late for CL. I'm also fairly certain that Rogers decided last summer that he was leaving at the first opportunity and completly took his eye off the ball in terms of strengthening the team for the future.
I think we did well to claim the treble and come out of the summer with a stronger team after the management upheaval last year.

I think you are right. The players we have look very good indeed. I hope we can keep them together for a crack at qualification next year or at least limit sales to those who simply want to leave us. Was talking to a mate about this just yesterday. Thre isn't a player who starts or comes on these days wjere I think 'Oh no not him'. I appreciate its a bit early to make judgements but I'm hopeful. Maybe just need someone to take the pressure off calmac and Brown. Maybe thats just being greedy

 

[kelly]

Cheers Kelly.
This is a big moment. The deals for the young players O'Connor and Frimpong may well be Hammond. Also Lennon likes working with him, he's said as much. But will he stay? He's a temp post without a title. He probably came her to re-align a damaged CV from West Brom. If he gets a title and an independent remit I'll believe we are making proper plans. If he goes I'd be worried we won't be serious about such a role having genuine autonomy

If he is allowed to go it would be a huge mistake , we've known for years we can't compete in the EPL market but what this year has proved we can cherry pick the EPL youth market .

Clubs who stockpiled players over the years are running at saturation point ,Hammond will know this market better than most

We need a settled structure in the background from scouting through to development through to the first team
Rodgers may have given us success but he tore the background out before he left and his appointment of Congerton was a complete waste in each transfer window,this january window will be telling

 

[Hoopy427]

I think you are right. The players we have look very good indeed. I hope we can keep them together for a crack at qualification next year or at least limit sales to those who simply want to leave us. Was talking to a mate about this just yesterday. Thre isn't a player who starts or comes on these days wjere I think 'Oh no not him'. I appreciate its a bit early to make judgements but I'm hopeful. Maybe just need someone to take the pressure off calmac and Brown. Maybe thats just being greedy

I never thought Hayes was Celtic quality, but to be fair to him he's done well for us this season and if he had played at LB against Cluj with Calmac in the middle maybe things would have been different.
I think we all want Wanyama in January, he wouldn't just be a natural replacement for Broony he'd be an improvement and I say that with full respect for Broony. I just don't see how we can afford his wages, i think Brugge were offering him £65k a week, that sort of money would just break our wage structure it would bloody shatter it!

 

[kelly]

I never thought Hayes was Celtic quality, but to be fair to him he's done well for us this season and if he had played at LB against Cluj with Calmac in the middle maybe things would have been different.
I think we all want Wanyama in January, he wouldn't just be a natural replacement for Broony he'd be an improvement and I say that with full respect for Broony. I just don't see how we can afford his wages, i think Brugge were offering him £65k a week, that sort of money would just break our wage structure it would bloody shatter it!

As good a signing as that would be it would be a false dawn , we need our OWN players ,players who will be here settled for the long term,integrated into the team ready for the qualifiers

 

[Niall J]

As good a signing as that would be it would be a false dawn , we need our OWN players ,players who will be here settled for the long term,integrated into the team ready for the qualifiers

Agree on Wanyama. It would ony be a loan deal i'd assume and unless that was an 18 month loan deal starting in January so he was bedded in early and available for the qualifiers think we'd need to look elsewhere. The wages could probably be met if it was say 40k and Sincair as a high earner was moved on. Possible I guess but certainly not probable. Would be nice right enough

 

[kelly]

Agree on Wanyama. It would ony be a loan deal i'd assume and unless that was an 18 month loan deal starting in January so he was bedded in early and available for the qualifiers think we'd need to look elsewhere. The wages could probably be met if it was say 40k and Sincair as a high earner was moved on. Possible I guess but certainly not probable. Would be nice right enough

It would be IF it was 18 month and hopefuly he stayed injury free and we got rid of some more dead wood but it still papers over the cracks

feck who am i kiddin would be brilliant having him back