Strict Liability – Celtic formally outline their opposition
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Spherical Planet
Well-known member
The question that Celtic must pose the question to our elected representatives:
What about their own duty of care and "strict liability"?
These parliamentary fools make decisions on a daily basis which directly affect the general population and, more often than not, make a complete pig's ear of it.
They may state that they are held to account at the ballot box, but politics being what it is, means that that accountability is somewhat limited.
The argument is always on rogue individuals acting independently. Do the SNP (or any other party) have to be held to account because of the moral repudiation of individuals within their set, or do we forego "strict liability" in that case?
What about their own duty of care and "strict liability"?
These parliamentary fools make decisions on a daily basis which directly affect the general population and, more often than not, make a complete pig's ear of it.
They may state that they are held to account at the ballot box, but politics being what it is, means that that accountability is somewhat limited.
The argument is always on rogue individuals acting independently. Do the SNP (or any other party) have to be held to account because of the moral repudiation of individuals within their set, or do we forego "strict liability" in that case?
Theverdict1
Well-known member
The amount of incidents that we have witnessed this season, the bottles, coins, and player confrontation are not the real target here. They make up an insignificant number in relation to overall numbers as the figures from us showed.
The real target is the singing of sectarian and political songs. Which aren’t carried out by one or two people. Let’s not kid ourselves.
We have a situation now where our board has repeatedly asked the supporters to cut out the political songs, because it sees how we are dragged into this. This, particularly at away games, has been ignored. So, regardless of your views of the songs sung has us in the dock.
I have stated many times that I would prefer Celtic songs sung to do two things.
1. Inspire the team more. As o don’t believe for a minute the political songs do that.
2. Leave Sevco alone in the firing line.
The threat of infiltration by Sevconian to try and get us fined could be averted by supporters surrounding the cunts and help to identify them as not our support. Because if this came in we would need to be sure they would use anything to try to deduct points and no Celtic fan would do they, so we would need to react to this and challenge and if need be hold them.
The simple way out for us would be to cut these songs out. This is what the club want. I agree with very little the board do, but in this I agree. It damages our image and is used to beat us with in order to nullify the focus on the Sevconian.
My question to those who like to sing about the Provos is this. If Strict Liability is brought in, would you ignore it and continue singing them if you knew it would be used to deduct points or cost us money or even a place in European football?
That would be a possible scenario if this is brought in.
The real target is the singing of sectarian and political songs. Which aren’t carried out by one or two people. Let’s not kid ourselves.
We have a situation now where our board has repeatedly asked the supporters to cut out the political songs, because it sees how we are dragged into this. This, particularly at away games, has been ignored. So, regardless of your views of the songs sung has us in the dock.
I have stated many times that I would prefer Celtic songs sung to do two things.
1. Inspire the team more. As o don’t believe for a minute the political songs do that.
2. Leave Sevco alone in the firing line.
The threat of infiltration by Sevconian to try and get us fined could be averted by supporters surrounding the cunts and help to identify them as not our support. Because if this came in we would need to be sure they would use anything to try to deduct points and no Celtic fan would do they, so we would need to react to this and challenge and if need be hold them.
The simple way out for us would be to cut these songs out. This is what the club want. I agree with very little the board do, but in this I agree. It damages our image and is used to beat us with in order to nullify the focus on the Sevconian.
My question to those who like to sing about the Provos is this. If Strict Liability is brought in, would you ignore it and continue singing them if you knew it would be used to deduct points or cost us money or even a place in European football?
That would be a possible scenario if this is brought in.
Interestingly , only 6 Premiership clubs responded ( by name ) to this consultation . There were 5 anonymous contributions from organisations ( presumably football clubs ) .
Assuming all of the 5 anonymous organisations were Premiership clubs ( they may not be ! ) my simple Arithmetic gives me 6 + 5 = 11 . So one club did not respond at all , not even anonymously . I wonder who ?
Strange that on a matter of such importance to football clubs , especially in the Premiership , any club would want to withhold their identity . And for one ( at least ) not to respond is clearly a dereliction of their duty to their supporters .
In case anyone is unable to read the whole document , the Premiership clubs who responded by name are : Celtic , Dundee , Aberdeen , St Mirren , St Johnstone and Hibernian .
Why the others did not respond or withheld their identity is open to debate .
I noticed that Club 1872 responded - but only answered one question , stating that 92% of members ( who responded - no numbers given ) were against . That was it as far as they were concerned .
Celtic's response was long and detailed and , having read it , convinced me that this is not the way forward .
NB : Please note that this consultation closed on 17 March 2017 , so was not influenced by recent disturbances .
Assuming all of the 5 anonymous organisations were Premiership clubs ( they may not be ! ) my simple Arithmetic gives me 6 + 5 = 11 . So one club did not respond at all , not even anonymously . I wonder who ?
Strange that on a matter of such importance to football clubs , especially in the Premiership , any club would want to withhold their identity . And for one ( at least ) not to respond is clearly a dereliction of their duty to their supporters .
In case anyone is unable to read the whole document , the Premiership clubs who responded by name are : Celtic , Dundee , Aberdeen , St Mirren , St Johnstone and Hibernian .
Why the others did not respond or withheld their identity is open to debate .
I noticed that Club 1872 responded - but only answered one question , stating that 92% of members ( who responded - no numbers given ) were against . That was it as far as they were concerned .
Celtic's response was long and detailed and , having read it , convinced me that this is not the way forward .
NB : Please note that this consultation closed on 17 March 2017 , so was not influenced by recent disturbances .
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Theverdict1
Well-known member
Then why are we looking at it. There has been an escalation of disturbances involving in violent action, the highlighting of sectarian singing and the situation has altered.
Looking at responses from 2017 is not relevant to today, the positions will no doubt remain, but it is clear that things have got worse. This would suggest to me at least that a different look at it has to be taken. It’s clear that calls from the clubs has fallen on deaf ears to those who feel their conduct is ok and the other lot are to blame, or as bad.
If the nut wont or can’t change, sometimes a sledgehammer is the only solution. Letting football games to be used as expressions of violence, hate, political views, sectarianism does reflect on the country. If football doesn’t have the power, and let’s face it, it doesn’t, to stop supporters doing what they want, what would people suggest as an alternative.
Nobody wants strict liability, but, if responsibility to change isn’t embraced how do you solve the problem other than upping the ante?
I can’t think of anything that would achieve removing the stuff that the clubs themselves state they don’t want to see.
Anybody got an alternative I would be delighted to hear it. As would the clubs, authorities and government.
Spherical Planet
Well-known member
There are no alternatives TV1, for as long as folk have a voice then they're going to use it to express themselves in any way they see fit.
I agree wholeheartedly with missile throwing, pitch invasion, confrontation and intent to commit bodily harm, but as long as there are fans in the ground - then there's a high probability that the songs are going to be inflammatory, derisory, and designed to offend the defining characteristics of the opponent.
The issue I have is that football again is being used as the test case for "strict liability", when there are various protest/political groups inciting hatred, homophobia, bigotry and violence on a regularly occurring basis.
However unsavoury it may be, there still has to be scope for free-expression. It is a fundamental privilege of a nation that supposedly prides itself on free speech. There are many things I find distasteful, but at least I know by these expressions of hatred - the mindset of those pronouncing these words.
Any standard has to be set from the top though. If the process of parliament is to limit the topics of the songbook, then they must, by that same standard, judge themselves on their own actions and throughout society as a whole.
The problems in Scotland don't begin and end with football. They may be more identifiable at football grounds, but they are also evident in many other walks of life, including the political arena, media, and law.
The language may be less direct and industrial, but the sentiment remains the same.
The main issue I have with the "strict liability" proposal, is that there is very little the clubs can do to prevent paying fans from expressing themselves. Some clubs have tried harder than others, and it certainly appears that the newest club in Glasgow actively encourage the base to identify with a specific brand of supremacist behaviour; however "strict liability" will be used as a giant shitty stick to beat Celtic over the head with. They are petrified to deal with the ignorance and density of the huns, and by sheer numbers alone - their traditional supporters still make up the bulk of the electorate.
Theverdict1
Well-known member
I agree SL is draconian and possibly a last resort. However, hate groups can and do get prosecuted under the law if it contravenes recent legislation. At football because of the potential anonymity people can sing or shout what they like with little chance of being caught.
A wider societal look at this means most people are sick to the back fucking teeth with the never healing sore of Ireland’s troubles manifest predominantly boy through political channels but from the terraces.
For example, in our case thousands sing the provisionals songs a couple of hundred march. Celtic and I take the view, that having these views is completely up to the individual but to express them at the game is not that arena. Loads disagree and I accept that, but, why should my team be penalised for anyone’s political belief that has fuck all to do with my team playing football? Or, why do we spend more time singing about Bobby Sands/ BBB,SeanSouth,the ever merry agricultural worker, The Black and Tans/ etc, than any of our players? They inspire no cunt. They lift no cunt. What they do is lay us open to be tarred with a brush that should be owned by sevco.
I have not one problem with people having views and strong beliefs on the Irish situation, but I can’t take it seriously if the only way you show solidarity is by singing at away games when we are playing shite.
I would like us to sing Celtic songs, get behind the players, sing about them.
If however, we won’t stop and the sectarian songs and political songs are what defines us, then I would back SL. It’s a total ducking embarrassment for our country and wherever you go people can’t get their head around why we insist on living in the past and glorifying stuff that will ensure in 800 years we will be doing the same shit.
It seems to me supporters want a bye. That patience is running out to allow that, if it cuts down on us being viewed as a bigoted wee country then I would vote for it.
The PIRA do not play for Celtic, lots of players do. Why not sing about them and keep our club out of this firing line.
And another thing, if you feel you can’t, then at least have the ducking balls to march with the Republicans. At least they have the balls to back up what they hold dear. Singing about filling an empty holster, yet too scared to fill the streets kinda fucks up any claim to be standing beside them.
The club want it, Lenny said its embarrassing, no response. It will be sad if we are forced to. But I think it will happen. Let’s jump before we are pushed.
TET
Well-known member
Heres a controversial solution.
You get caught doing something worthy of action. You get stuck in stocks outside the stadium for next months, fed by a family member with the crime you have been found guilty.
If its deemed worthy of being abused with rotten fruit supplied by any old fruit shop refuse department, verbal abuse and or smacked with a few rotten tomatoes for the duration of the month and banned from stadium there after.
If the crime is not found worthy of abuse and in fact should be defended then petition for early release from the stocks and offered a defence team to fight the false crime.
You get caught doing something worthy of action. You get stuck in stocks outside the stadium for next months, fed by a family member with the crime you have been found guilty.
If its deemed worthy of being abused with rotten fruit supplied by any old fruit shop refuse department, verbal abuse and or smacked with a few rotten tomatoes for the duration of the month and banned from stadium there after.
If the crime is not found worthy of abuse and in fact should be defended then petition for early release from the stocks and offered a defence team to fight the false crime.
Spherical Planet
Well-known member
I'd really love to argue some of these points, TV1, but I can't justify an argument.
I do think that singing can be an outlet for pent-up aggression, but beyond poking a bit of fun at huns in duress, I agree that it's more conducive when we're supporting the team.
I've made my feelings clear on other threads about my background and my leanings, I also agree that there are more relevant environments to support these perspectives.
I've been reading and learning about the history of the Emerald Isle for longer than I care to remember, I no longer sing the rebs at the grounds and haven't done for years, but im also a believer in free speech, I agree with SP who hints at the hypocrisy from the SNP or any party in power who can balls it up big time and get off without any punishment, politicians should only be paid the average wage, if they do really well we should give the a performance related bunus, how's that strict liability grab ye Holyrood.
Back to my point, I do feel our supporters song list is way too heavy and top loaded with republican songs, especially at the away games and this will always cause offence to people who don't have a dog in the fight in the quagmire that is the History of Ireland and it's conflict with UK.
What people need to realise that the average punter in the UK will only know what the UK propaganda machine has told them, and that leaves the vast majority of them scratching their head and wondering what we are all about.
I can't see much changing any time soon, the songs have been sung for decades and that seems to be the way it will stay. I have to say though that these songs are political and not sectarian, we should never mix these facts up, I do feel that republican supporters should accept that war crimes were committed by the provos during the conflict, and many people I thought were heroes have turned out to be anything but, everyone with an interest in the conflict should set aside some time to educate themselves with the history that makes uncomfortable reading for supporters of the cause.
Who knows, when the romantic notion is taken out of the war, maybe then our song list might change.
Back to my point, I do feel our supporters song list is way too heavy and top loaded with republican songs, especially at the away games and this will always cause offence to people who don't have a dog in the fight in the quagmire that is the History of Ireland and it's conflict with UK.
What people need to realise that the average punter in the UK will only know what the UK propaganda machine has told them, and that leaves the vast majority of them scratching their head and wondering what we are all about.
I can't see much changing any time soon, the songs have been sung for decades and that seems to be the way it will stay. I have to say though that these songs are political and not sectarian, we should never mix these facts up, I do feel that republican supporters should accept that war crimes were committed by the provos during the conflict, and many people I thought were heroes have turned out to be anything but, everyone with an interest in the conflict should set aside some time to educate themselves with the history that makes uncomfortable reading for supporters of the cause.
Who knows, when the romantic notion is taken out of the war, maybe then our song list might change.
boab1916
Well-known member
"The main issue I have with the "strict liability" proposal, is that there is very little the clubs can do to prevent paying fans from expressing themselves."
Not everyday you get to win the big prizes so need to understand SL could be a punishment for merely celebrating greatness.
Theverdict1
Well-known member
I take your point about free speech. My problem is this, what about mine? What about the countless thousands like me who don’t sing them? Or don’t want them sung? We are incorporated into the narrative that Celtic fans all support the IRA, and not only that, are waiting about for holsters to be filled.
Holsters to be filled by people who can’t make a Sunday morning march?
Even if I was a totally committed Republican who agreed with everything the Provos did in the way they went about the troubles, I would see the damage this has caused the club. To think that we go into the future and nothing changes regarding what we sing is sad to me. The Irish national team fans don’t sing them at games. But, some here see it as a right. A must. Well plenty don’t but I am included in that as are others because some think it’s aporopriate.
I hate it when we are playing away, and it usually coincides with how we are playing, if not great, then it’s reb after reb, when what the team needs is for us to get behind the men in our shirts, not the men behind the wire.
The songs inspire no one. They lift no one. They do however put the focus on us. They put us on a par with Sevconians, rightly or wrongly. Every fan who sings them knows this. But they believe they have a higher right to sing them.
Instead of Up the Ra, why not Mon the Celtic! If people want to excercise their free speech and use it in a way that shows solidarity then do that in places it is appropriate. How many of the 26 counties would be free if all everybody did was sing songs about what they were going to do, but when they were needed were tucked up in their beds when people with real conviction marched and fought? Fucking zero.
Be a republican if you choose, but also be a Celtic fan and see they are not the same and that the songs might give you a buzz, but it’s the team that needs that, not the Belfast Brigade. The problem I have is people put their political beliefs, tenuous as they are through their failure to turn out for marches. When you see how few turn out, that tells me everything I need to know about how much they actually believe in it.
Using Celtic to express your half hearted commitment is not the platform for me and many others. To try to convince yourself it doesn’t damage the club we all love is just telling yourself a lie and saying you don’t give a fuck.
My fear is it will only stop when the club is sanctioned. Then we will have a situation where people who don’t march for the cause they say they believe in costing us points. How can their selective free speech be justified in making us all suffer? That to me would be a travesty and ill judged and contrary to doing the best for our team. It’s time to let them go for me.
JamSam67
Well-known member
I too think it’s time for the past to be the past.
We need to be smart this thing will only be used against 11 teams where and when necessary.
It will never be used against the 7 year olds.
So only Celtic fans can stop this from affecting their club.
When watching the Barca fans Video of the 2-1 game the backing the fans gave was magnificent.
The Palestinian situation was fantastic from the fans. That was something that couldn’t be stopped.
But this is Scotia, the best wee corrupt country in the world.
It’s wrong to call out somebody with a different skin colour.
But you can call a Fenian whatever you want.
And nothing will be done about it. Fact.
So Celtic fans it’s up to you who do you think this Act will affect.
Back the Team they need it when we aren’t playing well.
HH
We need to be smart this thing will only be used against 11 teams where and when necessary.
It will never be used against the 7 year olds.
So only Celtic fans can stop this from affecting their club.
When watching the Barca fans Video of the 2-1 game the backing the fans gave was magnificent.
The Palestinian situation was fantastic from the fans. That was something that couldn’t be stopped.
But this is Scotia, the best wee corrupt country in the world.
It’s wrong to call out somebody with a different skin colour.
But you can call a Fenian whatever you want.
And nothing will be done about it. Fact.
So Celtic fans it’s up to you who do you think this Act will affect.
Back the Team they need it when we aren’t playing well.
HH
