The new manager will be...

1888 said:
Im starting to wonder would NL be prepared to stay on as a "wingman" of sorts for a new manager. Perhaps that would be the best of both worlds. [at least not the worst]
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If we're really getting a new manager then it should be with background staff too. Plenty of folk mumped about the defensive coaching not being good enough etc and I've been complaining about their lack ingenuity with dead-ball situations and not being able to profit from these the way other teams do.
 
The Shamrock said:
If we're really getting a new manager then it should be with background staff too. Plenty of folk mumped about the defensive coaching not being good enough etc and I've been complaining about their lack ingenuity with dead-ball situations and not being able to profit from these the way other teams do.
Click to expand...
Safe to say any new manager will bring in new backroom staff just like the snake done
 
TET said:
Andy I don't dream up stuff that's irrelevant to your proposal, imo.

The 50 Million I made mention of should be the cash ready for investment from club without debt requirement.

Its you who suggested I say that should be done every season. Not me.

My figure is based on the annual accounts plus the money in from Dembele and Rodgers.
And the reduction in the operation expenses.

You make mention of untightening the purse strings and bringing experienced professionals from across Europe. I agree with that concept, but the flaw in it is the same as the argument you claim is straw man.

If there are available professionals looking to move abroad they either want big wage rises or most often they are quite settled and happy at their current country region culture. That leaves us to draw from the UK Market which is hyper inflated south of the border. These are the traditional type guys we would add value to our team.

That channel is out.

Also we need to add value on the pitch. players who add value to our pitch need to be champions league strength players, who are very rarely cheap from EU teams since football is so globalised that scouts can just sit watching tv screens after tv screens and anybody who fits your description get bought up by the EPL teams with excess money and then loan farmed till they are either ready or they can recoup their money.

So the players like the equivalent to Scott Brown or Lustig or any of our other experienced pros either come with massive wages or they really don't fancy abroad generally or Scotland particularly. The reason they aren't in the big leagues with their experience is they must have some kind of bond for a Club or a culture. The British cultural players Scotland used to supplement their team with are now in a different category even at low levels. When Rooney can get more money at very low level in England than he can get at Aberdeen then something is wrong. And is Johnny Hayes or Rooney the kind of higher quality available from these other markets.

Im not defeatist its the way the market has been skewed by the money fixers. So Celtic are most often better to bring young guys who can learn an grow with potential than old high risk players with no real value.

The only time any player should ever be bought ever is if he adds value on the pitch. The art lies I getting best value off the pitch to keep operations running sustainably.

You don't want Lennon.

But who do you want if im straw man arguing in your eyes. Im arguing points I think you are proposing. But what are you actually proposing. You say first team ready. But you don't mention should they be same strength less strength or better strength than our players.

Now if your arguing less strength that would be madness.

Now if your arguing same strength then that doesn't take team forward.

So I assume you want stronger players, who come cheap but add value on the pitch.

And im arguing all the best players that are better than our players don't want to come here without massive wage hikes which we can't afford or they already play in the massive leagues.

You may not be arguing these points but they are inseparable through reason.

Add value on pitch means better players than we have which makes them champions league strength. These players cost massive amounts and the Scottish market doesn't add value to players with the poor overall standard. Celtic add value through their risk strategy taking high risk players making them champions then punting them to the monster leagues where they usually make money on players they buy from here.

I fully agree with your philosophy that we should be buying experienced players

My argument is the known good players are on any radars and they clearly quite happy with their life and culture

the ones who would come here are mercenaries therefore as soon as they can get wage upgrade they are off.

And the traditional market we would pick up good players is now excessively hyper inflated to point where we can't buy from that market without massive risks and the second we appear on radar of that club they open the bidding knowing if celtic are interested then other clubs will want to take closer look.

The alternative is we build a team from cultures that may not fit the Scottish culture or its football which means they are very very high risk.

Therefore imo Lennon who has been working that market for years with success is a good option.

Im not trying to convince you Andy Im trying to be as explicit with my argument to show why I back that man.

Lubo pops up with Wenger and I think you know what his knowledge of French market and the his superior experience and high standards might just work,

But I am not sure who you would like as the manger or why.

I know you want the board to open the purse strings which I do too, but hopefully with added value which im arguing is very very difficult with the skewed markets and the subsidisations.

You may claim these aren't what you argue but they are part of reality of what we face therefore its not straw man argument. Its all related.

If anything you appear to be trying the old lets not take the reality factors into account, what arguing is I want these things and im not really interested in reality, I just expect it to be done to my satisfaction and well it can be done but im not going to explain how, and any problems you see with my argument are irrelevant since I didn't make them?

Andy Im on your side.

I want better more experienced players.

I can't see the players you think are there, they may be there, im hoping they are there, but I suspect it will take a guy with great eye for talent, and I think that mn is lennon.

I may well be wrong.

Other than Wenger I can't see any of the other options being good fit at celtic.

But I didn't think win Janssen or doctor jo or Strachan were good choices but they had their merits in the long run.

Im on your team im not straw arguing mystery stuff, every single thing I argue I feel is relevant. if ihavent made clear why I feel its relevant then feel free to ask me for more explicit reasoning on specific things. It may well be that I have made many errors. in fact I would be shocked if I haven't made massive fatal errors in my arguments.

But for me straw man argument is where a politician type tries to evade something, not where he goes into extra detail as to why the other option doesn't fit quite so well as may be proposed.

Anyway HH mate
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Your arguing against points that I'm not even making and framing the debate in a narrow context that suits your own arguments TET, I'm sorry that is a straw man argument no matter how you dress it up.

To be fair TET I never said anywhere that you said we should be spending £50m every season, look back at the comments and you'll see at no point did I say anything of the sort. This is what I mean I'm having to address arguments/points that you claim I'm making when I'm not and it makes having a proper debate impossible.

You know whit mate we just have a completely different take on the whole subject from more or less every angle, I'm well aware of the difficulties and the realities we face as a club but too often those difficulties are portrayed to be insurmountable problems when they're just not. There is some amount of hyperbole thrown around regarding this subject and anytime someone breaks from the company line and says well maybe we could do better, maybe there's a different approach or maybe we could spend a little more or target a different type of player than we're doing now they get absolutely torched and accused of being negative, unrealistic and ungrateful. That's not on as far as I'm concerned and I won't stop saying it to appease those who disagree.

It's not a denial of reality to point out there are alternative options and tweaks to the strategy that can be made that would lead to improvements on the pitch and just because I don't give you the detailed minutia of how it could be done doesn't mean I'm somehow denying the reality factors the club has to work around. There's a whole host of valid questions I posed to yourself regarding the sustainability of the current strategy that you endorse but I didn't get any explanation never mind a detailed explanation as to why you thought it was a sustainable model long term. I mean if you're going to answer questions with questions without actually addressing the issue then what's the point. Also why would I argue for players of less strength to be signed when the whole point of my argument is about improvement? I thought that would be something that was self-explanatory?

As for speculating on who the next manager should be I don't think it's worthwhile throwing out names into the ether, it's no like Peter Lawell is going to say 'you know whit good shout there Andy' but as a fan and a season ticket holder I reserve the right to say if there's better than Lenny available we should go for that guy and that's all I've ever really said on the matter. Aye I think Lenny is a decent manager but I'm not going to kid on he's Pep Guardiola. I mean your making Lenny out to be some sort of transfer market and youth development guru? Where's the evidence for that and if he's that level of genius then why is there not a queue of clubs lining up begging for his signature?

I'm not trying to have a go at you TET, I've got a lot of respect and time for you mate but on this particular subject I fundamentally disagree with your views and your reasoning surrounding it. We're never going to find common ground on it from what I can see so we're going to have to agree to disagree and move on.

HH TET(y)
 
Andybhoy88 said:
Your arguing against points that I'm not even making and framing the debate in a narrow context that suits your own arguments TET, I'm sorry that is a straw man argument no matter how you dress it up.

To be fair TET I never said anywhere that you said we should be spending £50m every season, look back at the comments and you'll see at no point did I say anything of the sort. This is what I mean I'm having to address arguments/points that you claim I'm making when I'm not and it makes having a proper debate impossible.

You know whit mate we just have a completely different take on the whole subject from more or less every angle, I'm well aware of the difficulties and the realities we face as a club but too often those difficulties are portrayed to be insurmountable problems when they're just not. There is some amount of hyperbole thrown around regarding this subject and anytime someone breaks from the company line and says well maybe we could do better, maybe there's a different approach or maybe we could spend a little more or target a different type of player than we're doing now they get absolutely torched and accused of being negative, unrealistic and ungrateful. That's not on as far as I'm concerned and I won't stop saying it to appease those who disagree.

It's not a denial of reality to point out there are alternative options and tweaks to the strategy that can be made that would lead to improvements on the pitch and just because I don't give you the detailed minutia of how it could be done doesn't mean I'm somehow denying the reality factors the club has to work around. There's a whole host of valid questions I posed to yourself regarding the sustainability of the current strategy that you endorse but I didn't get any explanation never mind a detailed explanation as to why you thought it was a sustainable model long term. I mean if you're going to answer questions with questions without actually addressing the issue then what's the point. Also why would I argue for players of less strength to be signed when the whole point of my argument is about improvement? I thought that would be something that was self-explanatory?

As for speculating on who the next manager should be I don't think it's worthwhile throwing out names into the ether, it's no like Peter Lawell is going to say 'you know whit good shout there Andy' but as a fan and a season ticket holder I reserve the right to say if there's better than Lenny available we should go for that guy and that's all I've ever really said on the matter. Aye I think Lenny is a decent manager but I'm not going to kid on he's Pep Guardiola. I mean your making Lenny out to be some sort of transfer market and youth development guru? Where's the evidence for that and if he's that level of genius then why is there not a queue of clubs lining up begging for his signature?

I'm not trying to have a go at you TET, I've got a lot of respect and time for you mate but on this particular subject I fundamentally disagree with your views and your reasoning surrounding it. We're never going to find common ground on it from what I can see so we're going to have to agree to disagree and move on.

HH TET(y)
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This is straw man argument Andy

I am explicit on every single thing you ask Andy

I don't dance around any specific questions.

But you don't answer any specific questions. Its all Nigel Farage style there are other ways.

Still no wiser who your preferred choice of manager?

You suggested with the filibuster deflection tactics of straw man argument but its you who don't answer any specific questions then dance round everything but the main topic that you are proposing.

You say club needs to loosen purse strings and get better quality and more experienced players then dance round examples of doing what you claim can be done.

Examples that promote your argument. Not filibuster straw man arguments mate.

You avoid direct questions

I haven't avoided a single one.

I haven't brought up non related filibuster.

If you have questions fire away and ill Reply every single one specifically.

You then turn round and say I don't answer your questions so your not going to bother asking?

What questions am I avoiding?

You have made the same vague theory for months and say board need to get on it. Thats fine but what exactly should they be doing?

Its easy to be specific

I have been fully explicit

No starwman argument is explicit

Its you who are vague.

Therefore it might actually be that you are projecting what you do?

I ask again.

Why specific question that you have asked have I avoided?
And reframe the whole debate any way you like.

My framing is how I see the whole problem.

What is your explicit argument?

How can Celtic get better experience and better players than we currently have?

What is the risk metric of the 100M per season expected income should be used up in operating costs?

And what sort of wage structures should our players be on? And are they competitive enough to bring in higher quality players?

This straw man nonsense is your thing. Not mine.

Club needs better players.

1Which manager would you like?
2How much wage budget you giving him?
3How much spending budget you giving him?

Im not avoiding questions Andy

You have questions you want to ask ask away.

Straw men arguments always make excuses.

Maybe its you who isn't aware your being vague and avoiding reality?

Hit me with your theory but not a vague straw man theory. one grounded with some specifics.
 
TET said:
This is straw man argument Andy

I am explicit on every single thing you ask Andy

I don't dance around any specific questions.

But you don't answer any specific questions. Its all Nigel Farage style there are other ways.

Still no wiser who your preferred choice of manager?

You suggested with the filibuster deflection tactics of straw man argument but its you who don't answer any specific questions then dance round everything but the main topic that you are proposing.

You say club needs to loosen purse strings and get better quality and more experienced players then dance round examples of doing what you claim can be done.

Examples that promote your argument. Not filibuster straw man arguments mate.

You avoid direct questions

I haven't avoided a single one.

I haven't brought up non related filibuster.

If you have questions fire away and ill Reply every single one specifically.

You then turn round and say I don't answer your questions so your not going to bother asking?

What questions am I avoiding?

You have made the same vague theory for months and say board need to get on it. Thats fine but what exactly should they be doing?

Its easy to be specific

I have been fully explicit

No starwman argument is explicit

Its you who are vague.

Therefore it might actually be that you are projecting what you do?

I ask again.

Why specific question that you have asked have I avoided?
And reframe the whole debate any way you like.

My framing is how I see the whole problem.

What is your explicit argument?

How can Celtic get better experience and better players than we currently have?

What is the risk metric of the 100M per season expected income should be used up in operating costs?

And what sort of wage structures should our players be on? And are they competitive enough to bring in higher quality players?

This straw man nonsense is your thing. Not mine.

Club needs better players.

1Which manager would you like?
2How much wage budget you giving him?
3How much spending budget you giving him?

Im not avoiding questions Andy

You have questions you want to ask ask away.

Straw men arguments always make excuses.

Maybe its you who isn't aware your being vague and avoiding reality?

Hit me with your theory but not a vague straw man theory. one grounded with some specifics.
Click to expand...

I've been quite clear on my points, it's you who seems to be the old hand at filibustering as you either answer questions by answering completely different questions that you'd prefer to answer and not the ones being asked, you dodge them by answering them with another question or you make up some convoluted excuse as to why the point being made is an unrealistic expectation i.e. we can't go for this or that player because he might no like the weather or he'll miss his mammy blah blah blah!

The points I've made during this whole exchange -

1. We need to add balance to the project signings by bringing in players with first team experience. to play alongside them. The team will be better for it and when the time comes for those 'projects' that shine to move on for a bumper fee we'll have the much needed experience to lessen the blow.

2. As we can't compete with the EPL level clubs we need to be realistic about what level we're operating at so instead of trying to go after players outwith our reach who are already on the radar of bigger clubs we should tap the less fashionable markets or the mid-range markets for solid pros who can improve us while not breaking the bank. These players are out there no matter how much you want to pretend they aren't.

3. I don't see the point in speculating on who the next manager is going to be, it is a pointless exercise as I have no control over or say in the matter. I'd like us to secure the best manager possible, do I believe Lenny is that man? Not necessarily. Clarke would have been my preferred realistic option but that ship has sailed.

4. It is unsustainable to continually go to the well and expect young inexperienced players to carry us to titles, cups and progression in Europe while our older more experienced players near the end of their careers. That experience has to be replaced but our current strategy doesn't allow for that. It is also unsustainable to buy up young 'projects' in bulk the way we do, the money spent on wages and transfer fees could be spent more wisely as there is a bigger risk that potential won't get realised and we end up in the situation we're in now where we have a bloated squad with players who are not up to it draining precious resources.

These are the points I've been making through this whole exchange, go back and read my posts it's all very clear so if you didn't think I was being clear enough then you clearly weren't paying attention, were to busy applying your own meaning to them or like I said putting up a straw man argument you could easily attack and knock down. I'll leave it up to others to judge whether these are realistic expectations or not and whether they think you were skirting round the issues or not.

I'm going to knock this on the head now before we seriously fall out TET. You clearly don't take well to being challenged on your views and you're already starting with the insults and taking an awfy spiky tone with me and I don't want to end up saying something I regret. I've tried to be respectful but you're not making it easy now so best to bring this to an end. Take a breath mate and calm doon ;)

HH.
 
Andybhoy88 said:
I've been quite clear on my points, it's you who seems to be the old hand at filibustering as you either answer questions by answering completely different questions that you'd prefer to answer and not the ones being asked, you dodge them by

HH.
Click to expand...

Andy so point 1 I have fully agreed with you on this point. My so called straw man addresses why this is problematic. have been explicit and clear.

You have made a valid theory but no examples of where these better players in other markets exist or tried to explain the cultural issues with this plan. It seems to have an assumption that teams at other clubs want to come play for Celtic in Scotland more than a home club. Again addressed in my so called straw man argument but not addressed your theory.

So no straw man from me here.

Point 2 I have also agreed in principle with your point here, not shot it down ever but presented many holes in the the vague concept you put forward.

It can be done but examples of managers who are currently able to do this very thing across teams similar to Celtic. And if there are no examples that fit this mould for Celtic level of top of the non subsidised leagues. What makes you think these players at lesser clubs with lots of experience will be better than the projects?

Its like suggesting every team buys some players that is better than what they already own and improves the team and sells the ones we don't want for more than we bought them.

Its possible but very vague and therefore not very probable to be successful. Pick up the best player from Dutch team that nobody else has spotted. Possible but is it likely? Pick up some dude from Bulgaria who can't speak English but has experience? is he likely to be a hit in Scotland? can he cope under 60k fans baying for his blood when he bottles it?

So again I addressed your theory with problems that I can see in its simplistic formula. Not a straw man argument from me. Addresses your point 2

Point 3

You don't care as long as he is best possible.

I have put forward many reasons why I think Lennon is best choice, doesn't mean he is, but again I put forward why I switched from Clarke to lennon the minute the horde got vocal about him. Same thing that could happen to any of these experienced hidden gems that will make the team better.

So again I fail to see my straw man argument. I put forward my choice, you do see point in speculating? Why? Seems a bit weird on thread about the next manager you don't see point of sharing your personal choice of massive list of potentials.

Vague very vague.

Point 4
again I've never once suggested this is a bad concept. But its the execution of bringing in these players of better experience and the cultural issues that comes with doing that I have tried to address. So once again no straw man argument. Still no wiser how the club can address this in real world though, since I don't think the better experienced pros are actually any better a t bedding into a new culture unless they are mercenaries and if they are mercenaries they aren't coming for long term. So again My straw man arguments do actually address your proposal. I also said I hope it can be done but its much much more difficult than just get it done. Stop wasting Money celtic and buy better players. When Rodgers bought most of the dross he bought I bet he didn't think he was wasting money. The Execution of bringing in suitable players with the gumption and the talent and the experience necessary are commodities that cost lots of money and the whole football market are looking for these players that will make them champions league players. Again I addressed this above in my straw man specifics. There me pointing out the potential issues to your concept but somehow my straw man arguments are very relevant to your points so far.

I do take very well to be being challenged on my views.

I don't take well to be accused of skirting round issues or not addressing specific questions related to my concepts or my address of others theory.

You will notice you didn't ask any specific questions so its hard to be straw man on a moving target. Its you who isn't enjoying being called out on explaining your Celtic by numbers easy as pie get it done Mr Lawell

Make the team better but stick to the parameters that are required get better players from the teams we really would like to be knocking out the CL qualifiers but make sure they are better players.

You also failed to address any specific questions again Andy relating to your plan.

No wage budgets
No manager preferences
No explanation of the next level Celtic team.

yet Im the start man argument guy.

I am cool as cucumber Andy

You made whole host of allegations about me that quite clearly haven't stacked up. And even when I asked you to put forward the things you claim I am not addressing you can see quite clearly I have addressed every single one with detailed problems I see in the theory.

But somehow Your theory can work without deeper explanation or any address on my critique of your plan. No specifics. No questions. No answers?

And im the straw man argument.

I don't shut down any argument Andy
I love good argument on topics that I have love involved. In fact I go on too much probably rather than shut down anybody argument.

But you aren't putting forward an argument. vague without specifics is political spin. Vague without addressing specifics or questions is your straw man.

You notice its you who doesn't feel the need to address any of your theory or how it can work? Not me.

I know how it can work and it can work. But its very very very high risk. Its called the moon beam theory of Mr Murray and the Crypt are banking on it working.

Hyper inflated markets, hyper inflated players. If it continues you can quickly dg yourself out of a debt hole. But if it goes pear shaped you need to start telling lies about clubs and cosmic ways out of the dead hole when the excessive risks are flattened by a financial shock that corrects the market.

But High risk is the gamblers domain and just like picking the winner in the Grand national is possible its very risky business.

I don't fall out with Celtic fans Andy.

I certainly aint going to fall out with you over your inability to address a critique on your own plan.

But there is only one of us not addressing the other one with honesty.

You claimed I didn't address your questions properly?

I dontsee any questions?

But you have totally avoided every question I have had about your theory. And im the straw man.

Here if you think being compared to Farage is an insult I take it back.

Farage occasionally addresses the topic in question with relevant critique. Your defence is your plan doesn't cover my critique therefor its straw man.

sorry Andy every single word I wrote is very relevant to your plan. You claim im trying to shut it down with irrelevant straw. yet you refuse to put substance on your theory.

I don't expect anyone to agree with me.

I am probably deeply wrong in my critique. but until proponents of your theory address the critiques of their theory they are mere straw men conjecture.

Possibly made with good intentions but laced with poison for the man who fails to live up to a set of straw concepts that proponents refuse to expand upon.

You will find that most people will be right on that vague plan. Its great for many reasons you can move the goal posts around and accuse people of arguing up a blind alley.

When the truth is the concept and theory while possible in theory is so vague its very very very risky. In fact its the Rodgers plan without the big league experience. No Kolo Toure, no Sinclair, No De Vries, No compper, No gamboa.

better than all of them but from hidden leagues with players who can compete in champions league without any champions winners medals.

And you feel insulted when I say its not based in reality.

Straw man indeed.

Oh what points did I avoid addressing?

Ah that's righty don't do specifics.

HH
 
The Shamrock said:
If we're really getting a new manager then it should be with background staff too. Plenty of folk mumped about the defensive coaching not being good enough etc and I've been complaining about their lack ingenuity with dead-ball situations and not being able to profit from these the way other teams do.
Click to expand...
..................................

Great call

Think back to the days of MON.

We were deadly at set pieces.....and yes I do realise the players are of a different caliber.....but it’s obvious there’s massive room for improvement
 
Imatim said:
..................................

Great call

Think back to the days of MON.

We were deadly at set pieces.....and yes I do realise the players are of a different caliber.....but it’s obvious there’s massive room for improvement
Click to expand...

Thats because we had nakamura and maloney. Both were dead ball experts in my book.

Griff wasn’t bad at them probably the best this team has to offer but he’s no been playing and before that he got hardly any game time.
 
Aye, well perhaps the sunshine and sangria might have baked your noodle, TT, but the point of sites like this is to allow fans a forum to express themselves.

You don't have to read it. You don't have to agree, but you could give folk a bit of credit for taking the time to enjoy both TET and Andy's contributions without them having to defend their choice in how they choose to exist.

Mayhaps you've made that comment with tongue firmly in cheek, but I enjoyed their debate and I'm quite happy with my life as it currently stands. I might not be able to bend shapes the way I once did, but I can hold a conversation and still get the occasional second-glance from an attractive mature woman. I even manage to juggle the responsibility of having a job alongside reading TET and Andy's posts.

I'll pass on your advice for now, but thanks for your concern
 
Spherical Planet said:
Aye, well perhaps the sunshine and sangria might have baked your noodle, TT, but the point of sites like this is to allow fans a forum to express themselves.

You don't have to read it. You don't have to agree, but you could give folk a bit of credit for taking the time to enjoy both TET and Andy's contributions without them having to defend their choice in how they choose to exist.

Mayhaps you've made that comment with tongue firmly in cheek, but I enjoyed their debate and I'm quite happy with my life as it currently stands. I might not be able to bend shapes the way I once did, but I can hold a conversation and still get the occasional second-glance from an attractive mature woman. I even manage to juggle the responsibility of having a job alongside reading TET and Andy's posts.

I'll pass on your advice for now, but thanks for your concern
Click to expand...

...............................

Yep!

She’s a belter SP ??

4FC07C78-0E56-4B9E-98AB-CBD508F27078.jpeg
 
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