Have we reached an impasse?

TET said:
We have some of thes players you mention already at club and we got gubbed by Valencia.

Attracting players to Celtic aint impossible its often the wages that we cant afford since it has knock on effect across the squad
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More excuses IMO. We pay higher wages than 1/2 the teams in the knock out round of Europa League including Salzbug who went 6-0 in the group stage including 2 wins against us and against a German Bundesliga team. We also have higher turnover and pay higher wages than Ajax who are in the Champions League KO rounds.

This is NOT an issue of insufficient resources. This is a failure to use those resources to achieve the same results as other clubs across across Europe (who should be considered our peers) regularly achieve. Whether that’s down to wrong players, wrong tactics, bad luck, or something else is up for debate. But it’s up to the board, PL, and BR to solve.
 
TET said:
Lets just say we offered to buy the entire valencia squad we just played.

How much would that cost?

Would they leave Valencia to come here?

Would they want pay rise to play in cold corrupt scottish league with msm on their case? Would they enjoy the culture, the weather, the level of opposition?

Would they be capable of winning the champions league would the constant depression of playing in this foreign culture effect thier motivation?

Would they be able to raise their game to their current sharpness when they constantly play against dross?
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think that's a big NO on all counts! hamilton accies,st mirren,(no offence to them) then psg,barcelona, hhmm.
 
Would also like to say that club resources is a problem in the sense that Celtic as a club should have way more at its disposal than it currently has.

If the figure of 9m fans worldwide is even remotely accurate, we’re generating very little income from those fans outside of the U.K. / Ireland. None of our sponsors, except perhaps Dafabet, generate any meaningful business from expats and other global fans outside the British Isles, and the club has a long way to go IMO in monetizing CelticTV in an era of cord cutting and premium streaming content. The ceiling for turnover is probably £50-100m higher than where we’re at IMO if the club were focused on monetizing the fan base outside of Scotland and the rest of the U.K.

That’s still no excuse for squandering the resources we have on bad players or for going into matches with predictable (and easily overcome!) tactics. But if the club has £50-100m extra turnover each year, that’s an extra £30-£70m combined transfer fees and wages each season. Doubling the wage bill would go a long way to bridging the gap even with poor tactics and suboptimized player recruitment!
 
BenLynch29 said:
More excuses IMO. We pay higher wages than 1/2 the teams in the knock out round of Europa League including Salzbug who went 6-0 in the group stage including 2 wins against us and against a German Bundesliga team. We also have higher turnover and pay higher wages than Ajax who are in the Champions League KO rounds.

This is NOT an issue of insufficient resources. This is a failure to use those resources to achieve the same results as other clubs across across Europe (who should be considered our peers) regularly achieve. Whether that’s down to wrong players, wrong tactics, bad luck, or something else is up for debate. But it’s up to the board, PL, and BR to solve.
Click to expand...

Your saying its no about finances.

But how do we get rid of the underperfoming players at cluba nd replace them with better players but keep the wages sustainable?

You talk about Ajax but do they no bring their own players through a system. VVD came froma lesser known Dutch club. But we made him better and showcased him and now he is one of the best players in europe. Should we have held onto him. Could we afford to compete with Southhampton wages? Would that have made him much mor valuable than 15 million sales. He is still unknown when we sell him so still unlikely a liverpool gonna pay 70 million for him.

Same with wanyama, brilliant player, could we hold him.

You saying its all excuses. But you havent put forward a sensible viable solution.

To turn round and say Salzburg have agreat youth system. Well Austria on borders of germany italy croatia hungary czech repuplic serbia poland slovakia

and most of thee countries speak german to certain extent, so they have pool of massive semi close cultural talent at their dispoal in one of europe wealthy countries with low crime high standard of living.

Scotland is on the back edge of europe and our countyr isnt producing that manyyoung super talents. So we need to import and to get young guys to leave their families and come to a corrupt backwater with very little room for error.

That goes for the seasoned pros in europe. The best player for anderlecht was approached to sign for cltic and he said no chance why would i sign for peasants.

SO the players who would pro0ably like to play for eltic are either fans or young guys hoping to play for celtic short period then shift onto better league and big money or players past their prime wantinga top up in pension and regualr game time.

Celtic were Eurpean champions with team of scotish players.

We have had had relative success in europe with mercenaries under O niel but we were really close to finacial trouble with that wage bill under oniel. hence reason we couldnt add to rthe strength of the squad and probably trhe reason he buggered off.

And at that time we were much closer to the big european clubs in financial terms.

You pick teams simialr to cletic and say how can they do it with less wages.

Answer because they have youth system that makes thes eyoung guys love that cluba nd its culture and they play in the continent rather than on the edge of an island on the edge of europe.

Andthe weather aint half as bad there as itis here.

Ask anyone what they ahte about scotalnd and they all say the weather sucks. It sucks for people born here but at least we are used to it to certain extent.

Would you go play for slovan bratislava if it was freeezing cold country and the fotball is considered pretyy dire outside bratislava?

Celtic might have huge world wide support but its no the weather that attracts them and when they get taste for the weather they usually want out asap
 
BenLynch29 said:
Would also like to say that club resources is a problem in the sense that Celtic as a club should have way more at its disposal than it currently has.

If the figure of 9m fans worldwide is even remotely accurate, we’re generating very little income from those fans outside of the U.K. / Ireland. None of our sponsors, except perhaps Dafabet, generate any meaningful business from expats and other global fans outside the British Isles, and the club has a long way to go IMO in monetizing CelticTV in an era of cord cutting and premium streaming content. The ceiling for turnover is probably £50-100m higher than where we’re at IMO if the club were focused on monetizing the fan base outside of Scotland and the rest of the U.K.

That’s still no excuse for squandering the resources we have on bad players or for going into matches with predictable (and easily overcome!) tactics. But if the club has £50-100m extra turnover each year, that’s an extra £30-£70m combined transfer fees and wages each season. Doubling the wage bill would go a long way to bridging the gap even with poor tactics and suboptimized player recruitment!
Click to expand...

Most of the 9 million fans that you quote come from impoverished countries who rely on Celtic charity to help them?????
 
£101 million turn over,£87 million operational costs,not much wriggle room there,can celtic maximize their income, given the celtic diaspora... surely yes,are efforts being made,i certanly hope so,the signings of the the"young americans" weah,perez and gutman,will surely raise the club's profile in the states,is it wait and see,if some fat cat yank steps in, or go the sustainable ajax model, develop your own, personally it's the latter for me!
 
michael duffy said:
good debate Ben,not disagreein with you,is the spl on a competitive level, with the eredivisie,the austrian and swiss leagues,think the co-efficient says no,but in your favour,an interesting article from e-tims,compares our business and player development model with that of ajax.
http://etims.net/?p=13914
Click to expand...

It’s true that Ajax is a model club in so many ways. They’re basically running the same corporate strategy as Celtic, but by an order of magnitude better. Credit where its due...

But I don’t think anyone can seriously argue that Celtic doesn’t promote its own youth players into the first team whenever it can, whether that’s longtime youth players like Forrest & KT, or whether it’s younger players we’ve acquired from other clubs at a very young age - Christie, Armstrong, Rogic, etc, with the intent of developing these young prospects into first team players.

Given the resource constraints relative to Europe’s elite, regularly getting deep into the KO rounds of Europa/CL will necessarily require us to use some homegrown players and/or cheaply acquired & developed prospects so we can concentrate our limited resources completing the squad with quality acquisitions.
 
TET said:
Your saying its no about finances.

But how do we get rid of the underperfoming players at cluba nd replace them with better players but keep the wages sustainable?

You talk about Ajax but do they no bring their own players through a system. VVD came froma lesser known Dutch club. But we made him better and showcased him and now he is one of the best players in europe. Should we have held onto him. Could we afford to compete with Southhampton wages? Would that have made him much mor valuable than 15 million sales. He is still unknown when we sell him so still unlikely a liverpool gonna pay 70 million for him.

Same with wanyama, brilliant player, could we hold him.

You saying its all excuses. But you havent put forward a sensible viable solution.

To turn round and say Salzburg have agreat youth system. Well Austria on borders of germany italy croatia hungary czech repuplic serbia poland slovakia

and most of thee countries speak german to certain extent, so they have pool of massive semi close cultural talent at their dispoal in one of europe wealthy countries with low crime high standard of living.

Scotland is on the back edge of europe and our countyr isnt producing that manyyoung super talents. So we need to import and to get young guys to leave their families and come to a corrupt backwater with very little room for error.

That goes for the seasoned pros in europe. The best player for anderlecht was approached to sign for cltic and he said no chance why would i sign for peasants.

SO the players who would pro0ably like to play for eltic are either fans or young guys hoping to play for celtic short period then shift onto better league and big money or players past their prime wantinga top up in pension and regualr game time.

Celtic were Eurpean champions with team of scotish players.

We have had had relative success in europe with mercenaries under O niel but we were really close to finacial trouble with that wage bill under oniel. hence reason we couldnt add to rthe strength of the squad and probably trhe reason he buggered off.

And at that time we were much closer to the big european clubs in financial terms.

You pick teams simialr to cletic and say how can they do it with less wages.

Answer because they have youth system that makes thes eyoung guys love that cluba nd its culture and they play in the continent rather than on the edge of an island on the edge of europe.

Andthe weather aint half as bad there as itis here.

Ask anyone what they ahte about scotalnd and they all say the weather sucks. It sucks for people born here but at least we are used to it to certain extent.

Would you go play for slovan bratislava if it was freeezing cold country and the fotball is considered pretyy dire outside bratislava?

Celtic might have huge world wide support but its no the weather that attracts them and when they get taste for the weather they usually want out asap
Click to expand...
great point's TET! HH
 
BenLynch29 said:
Would also like to say that club resources is a problem in the sense that Celtic as a club should have way more at its disposal than it currently has.

If the figure of 9m fans worldwide is even remotely accurate, we’re generating very little income from those fans outside of the U.K. / Ireland. None of our sponsors, except perhaps Dafabet, generate any meaningful business from expats and other global fans outside the British Isles, and the club has a long way to go IMO in monetizing CelticTV in an era of cord cutting and premium streaming content. The ceiling for turnover is probably £50-100m higher than where we’re at IMO if the club were focused on monetizing the fan base outside of Scotland and the rest of the U.K.

That’s still no excuse for squandering the resources we have on bad players or for going into matches with predictable (and easily overcome!) tactics. But if the club has £50-100m extra turnover each year, that’s an extra £30-£70m combined transfer fees and wages each season. Doubling the wage bill would go a long way to bridging the gap even with poor tactics and suboptimized player recruitment!
Click to expand...

Your living in hypothetical conjecture land and building economic models as if the 9 m celtic fans world wide.

4 billion people on the planet live on extreme poverty income.

Are any of the 9 million from that category

You think Lawell and the tory economic masters on the baord arent aware of getting max value for the club?

I havent heard anything that convinces me that the board arent doing good job.

The share price is pretty much max levels. club has money in bank the club reeling in record revenues and cash rich.

But its the wages that are burst.

You havent explained how we get better player with no resources and less wages than we already ahve while trimming the squad to m ake room for the better players?
 
BenLynch29 said:
It’s true that Ajax is a model club in so many ways. They’re basically running the same corporate strategy as Celtic, but by an order of magnitude better. Credit where its due...

But I don’t think anyone can seriously argue that Celtic doesn’t promote its own youth players into the first team whenever it can, whether that’s longtime youth players like Forrest & KT, or whether it’s younger players we’ve acquired from other clubs at a very young age - Christie, Armstrong, Rogic, etc, with the intent of developing these young prospects into first team players.

Given the resource constraints relative to Europe’s elite, regularly getting deep into the KO rounds of Europa/CL will necessarily require us to use some homegrown players and/or cheaply acquired & developed prospects so we can concentrate our limited resources completing the squad with quality acquisitions.
Click to expand...
never said we don't promote our youth,that's a given,but short term loan's albeit good players,what does that say to our young players, (your not good enough.....yet)mikey johnston,jack aitchison, calvin miller,liam henderson,who we lost and to an extent a young prospect like lewis morgan,i saw the quality street gang coming through,and given the levels in the spl,give those kids the chance to showcase their talent's,instead of developing players for other clubs.
 
TET said:
Most of the 9 million fans that you quote come from impoverished countries who rely on Celtic charity to help them?????
Click to expand...

This is over 15 years old at this point, and I’m not going to pretend it’s still accurate (also does not include Japan as this was pre-Nakamura). But read this.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_F.C._supporters
Particularly the Fanbase section.

But even if this is true, the American fanbase alone ought to be a goldmine, particularly given the spending power and the relative prices American fans pay to support their clubs (tickets to NFL, NBA, NHL are all $100+ just to walk into the stadium with premium seats running much more).

Consider the following math:
1,000,000 fans in North America
15% subscribe to CelticTV £189.99/year
20% buy a shirt at £60 (guessing here at the cost)
5% travel to Celtic Park for 1 match (or 1% for 5 matches like the Argentina Supporters Club recently visited for multiple matches) at £50 per person including food, beer, merchandise, etc.

If you do the math, that’s £43m of annual income! And that’s just 1 million of the supposed 9 million fans. Add in Asia, South America, and mainland Europe, and that number grows very quickly even if you assume 9 million is vastly overstated. And that’s also not counting any sponsorship income related to those fans as Magners is only exported in limited quantites outside the British Isles, and Dafabet is illegal (online gambling) in many places including America.

And I would also suggest that 15% attach rate on CelticTV should be considered a VERY low bar to hit as the Scottish league isn’t covered well, if at all, outside of the U.K. and CelticTV remains the #1 way foreign supporters connect with and follow the club. Given the proliferation of Netflix, ESPN+, HULU, Amazon Prime, and other streaming services, that number should approach 30%+ even accounting for the fact that many of those supporters will have the same residence.
 
BenLynch29 said:
This is over 15 years old at this point, and I’m not going to pretend it’s still accurate (also does not include Japan as this was pre-Nakamura). But read this.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_F.C._supporters
Particularly the Fanbase section.

But even if this is true, the American fanbase alone ought to be a goldmine, particularly given the spending power and the relative prices American fans pay to support their clubs (tickets to NFL, NBA, NHL are all $100+ just to walk into the stadium with premium seats running much more).

Consider the following math:
1,000,000 fans in North America
15% subscribe to CelticTV £189.99/year
20% buy a shirt at £60 (guessing here at the cost)
5% travel to Celtic Park for 1 match (or 1% for 5 matches like the Argentina Supporters Club recently visited for multiple matches) at £50 per person including food, beer, merchandise, etc.

If you do the math, that’s £43m of annual income! And that’s just 1 million of the supposed 9 million fans. Add in Asia, South America, and mainland Europe, and that number grows very quickly even if you assume 9 million is vastly overstated. And that’s also not counting any sponsorship income related to those fans as Magners is only exported in limited quantites outside the British Isles, and Dafabet is illegal (online gambling) in many places including America.

And I would also suggest that 15% attach rate on CelticTV should be considered a VERY low bar to hit as the Scottish league isn’t covered well, if at all, outside of the U.K. and CelticTV remains the #1 way foreign supporters connect with and follow the club. Given the proliferation of Netflix, ESPN+, HULU, Amazon Prime, and other streaming services, that number should approach 30%+ even accounting for the fact that many of those supporters will have the same residence.
Click to expand...

You ever watched the film layer cake?
 
TET said:
You ever watched the film layer cake?
Click to expand...

Assuming you have not the drug dealer has 1 million street value drugs so wants the distribution wholesale team to buy it at 1 million

guy tries to explain the nature of business and the layers of people getting thier cut of merchandise before it gets the street value of 1 million

So he can only offer him fraction of 1 million but the drug dealer doesnt get it.

Same with sevco fans they dont get it.

The bit your no getting is for the money you pay you want something in return the moeny that sports generates in us is usually around the matches of competitive nature. same as here.

MAybe having celtic playing in major league might bring in mega millions but to watch the game on tv and buy the odd trinket they arent gonna be handing over mega bucks.

Thats the exact same theory KIng keeps conning the huns with and the alistair johnston (institutional murder suspect) tried to get funding for the horde.

If its there I would put my money on Lawell and DD (nice set youve got there) being just the right men to tap into that gold.
 
BenLynch29 said:
This is over 15 years old at this point, and I’m not going to pretend it’s still accurate (also does not include Japan as this was pre-Nakamura). But read this.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_F.C._supporters
Particularly the Fanbase section.

But even if this is true, the American fanbase alone ought to be a goldmine, particularly given the spending power and the relative prices American fans pay to support their clubs (tickets to NFL, NBA, NHL are all $100+ just to walk into the stadium with premium seats running much more).

Consider the following math:
1,000,000 fans in North America
15% subscribe to CelticTV £189.99/year
20% buy a shirt at £60 (guessing here at the cost)
5% travel to Celtic Park for 1 match (or 1% for 5 matches like the Argentina Supporters Club recently visited for multiple matches) at £50 per person including food, beer, merchandise, etc.

If you do the math, that’s £43m of annual income! And that’s just 1 million of the supposed 9 million fans. Add in Asia, South America, and mainland Europe, and that number grows very quickly even if you assume 9 million is vastly overstated. And that’s also not counting any sponsorship income related to those fans as Magners is only exported in limited quantites outside the British Isles, and Dafabet is illegal (online gambling) in many places including America.

And I would also suggest that 15% attach rate on CelticTV should be considered a VERY low bar to hit as the Scottish league isn’t covered well, if at all, outside of the U.K. and CelticTV remains the #1 way foreign supporters connect with and follow the club. Given the proliferation of Netflix, ESPN+, HULU, Amazon Prime, and other streaming services, that number should approach 30%+ even accounting for the fact that many of those supporters will have the same residence.
Click to expand...
but Ben you have to think that "the very smart business people" at Celtic have'nt looked at those possibilities.
 
TET said:
Assuming you have not the drug dealer has 1 million street value drugs so wants the distribution wholesale team to buy it at 1 million

guy tries to explain the nature of business and the layers of people getting thier cut of merchandise before it gets the street value of 1 million

So he can only offer him fraction of 1 million but the drug dealer doesnt get it.

Same with sevco fans they dont get it.

The bit your no getting is for the money you pay you want something in return the moeny that sports generates in us is usually around the matches of competitive nature. same as here.

MAybe having celtic playing in major league might bring in mega millions but to watch the game on tv and buy the odd trinket they arent gonna be handing over mega bucks.

Thats the exact same theory KIng keeps conning the huns with and the alistair johnston (institutional murder suspect) tried to get funding for the horde.

If its there I would put my money on Lawell and DD (nice set youve got there) being just the right men to tap into that gold.
Click to expand...

Also most of the savvy celtic fans tune into stream tv bypassing the money side for celtic
 
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