Lawwell's step towards mediocrity - Celtic's European star is descending
- Thread starter Winning Captains
- Start date
Theverdict1
Well-known member
What these figures show me is the failure to recruit in time to make the CL is a recurring theme with Lawell. We missed out again this year and in order to make sure we don't next year he needs to get his fimucking finger out.
Hes like the guy who wants praise for calling out the fire brigade when the house is already a smouldering pile of rubble.
We need CL money. That takes players equipped to achieve it when we are in the fight. Not after we get handed our arse. Or I should say hand our arse to our opponents. Hes a dithering cheapskate, always has been, always will be. If he is allowed to let his risk averse arse cost us another £60m next year he needs sacked.
Hes like the guy who wants praise for calling out the fire brigade when the house is already a smouldering pile of rubble.
We need CL money. That takes players equipped to achieve it when we are in the fight. Not after we get handed our arse. Or I should say hand our arse to our opponents. Hes a dithering cheapskate, always has been, always will be. If he is allowed to let his risk averse arse cost us another £60m next year he needs sacked.
K
kelly
Guest
Players don't always jump at the first club that comes in their agents hold out for the best deal and the longer they hold out the chance may come they get a bigger club or better league
it's a two way street ,Lawwels a cnt we know that but so are agents
TET
Well-known member
revenue was 83 million plus capital gains from registration sales of approx 17 million
the season we got to CL revenues were approx 100M
The difference is not 60 million
So this losing 60 million is fallacy
its only lost if Celtic dont even get into EL
The cost of revenue eats into that 60 million figure.
Point is you cant increase costs much more than present without making the CL worthless
Its a bit like finding out inside a mountain there is 60 million of gold
But getting it out becomes stupid if it costs you more than 60 million to get it.
Getting the CL revenue is only worth it, if you can do it for less than you get back
And if you ramp up costs to get it and still fail, your in deep keek.
And we are pretty close to the max limit of sustainable wages.
Might have 40 million in bank
but for champions league quality players who play at that level consistently some of them earn 5 or 6 million per year and thats before you pay 20 million + to buy them.
So the other option is buying in risky players who are close but not there yet and giving them the skills they need. But even those players cost a fortune these days since Sky dish out 100 million per year to their big league clubs.
So it means its harder and harder every season to buy players from big leagues and even harder to get that money back if you don't also play in the big leagues.
But trouble is every champion in Europe not is sky leagues must play each other until only a couple are left. And every champion of Europe can beat any other champion over 2 leg cup tie.
Theverdict1
Well-known member
Hello TET, not seen you on for a while. Hope you're good my old fucke.
£60m is calculated thus. These figures are from last year.
CL qualification £40m
TV pot. £13.5m
CL tickets circa £12m
Total £65.5m
Now that's just a fact. That's what we would have secured last year. This year the TV pot is £15m. Regardless of what the outgoings are, dithering like fuck has cost us in the last two years over£120m.
Theres no getting away with that. Lawell needs to recognize that too late is disastrous. He us a risk averse dithering cheapskate that by saving a few Bob cost us millions.
Pp
We will never reach our potential with a shitebag in charge. Unless he realised the error of his shitebag look after the pennies but kept millions slip through his fingers, we will never reach where we should.
We look better and stronger than we did under The Deselcted Saint, but his taking so long to get the players in cost us. You like him, I don't. He is too feart. Too often.
TET
Well-known member
Your convincing yourself of a mirage
Im good my old pal
Forget the figures quoted coz they do not have balancing costs with them
Reach CL bonuses go up as result
So the self deception by buying into hun propaganda and refusing point blank to look at the cost structures is not a way to plan your business.
Cl attained 100 million revenue with profit 15 million approx
EL first ko round after El group attained 83 break even approx pay tax on capital gains from player sales
So your squinty like King figures look good without relevant costs of those revenues
And if you do math like squinty your gonna find yourself with a rusty useless new club coz you will kill Celtic using the revenue only model for planning.
In short 13 million profit before capital gains is better than break even
But you don't have much to buy better players by spending more than current costs and therefore your plan to spend to accumulate doesn't stack up.
We can't afford the players you seem to think we can buy without making CL totally pointless exercise
A club from Glasgow tried your plan
They died
And they even had everybody bending over backwards to save them
from SFA to Bank of Scotland to handshaking vitriolic knuckle men everywhere.
The only way they can break Celtic is for Celtic to buy into their propaganda and spend money it can never get back without the handshake money tunnels into tax havens
But still they died.
TET
Well-known member
The revenue coming in is only guaranteed if you reach CL
So 1 season with KO Europe before any group stage and we have costs way over income that season
Which means massive downsizing unless the reserves in bank are utilised to cover operation costs
We are running with costs of revenue last season equal to total revenue
So 84 million in 84 million out from normal operations
Profit was made by large capital incomes from player sales which may or may not be paid up in front
In short our costs of current team staff last season are probably max risk level
Which means we cant really afford bigger wage bill than currently
Need to bring overall wages down or get better players for current costs, very difficult task when competition for players we want get sky bung every season of 100 million
which is more than our entire revenue from whole treble winning campaign right up to ko after el group
TET
Well-known member
Eg
West Ham have 3 players earning 100K before bonuses plus nearly every other player in first team gets 50k+ before bonuses
They won nothing but revenue was close 200M with 100M of that from TV deal
Would you want any of West hams players at those kind of wages? I dont think West Ham are better than Celtic but maybe I'm wrong?
So West Ham can pay double our wages and more and still make massive profit every season.
Despite being serial losers season after season after season
thats a mighty big problem when it comes to attracting players who can compete at CL since most teams who get pass at KO rounds already get much more income than Celtic can earn, in some cases its astronomical income levels due to the huge monster bungs from tv rights.
...fair enough but we're not competing with west ham, we're competing with maribor, malmo, legia, cluj, copenhagen, Athens etc and we're failing repeatedly. these are all teams we should be beating more often than not but only if we prepare for these games years in advance ! we don't and we fail and you say it's because we can't compete with west ham? miles away! the board are making it up as they go and as fans we suffer. we don't care how much money we have, it insults us when we repeatadley regress on the park due to poor planning off it. I'm pretty sure edouard and macgregor will leave next summer and that's fine but What are we doing as a club to make sure this doesn't hurt us in next years qualifiers??? thats what I care about,
TET
Well-known member
Yeah but the point is getting players who are Celtic quality without getting gazumped by the lesser fish with massive bugs from TV deals
We may not be competing with West Ham directly but if we want to play in the CL we need players that are better than West Ham and if we unearth one in market the selling team can just send out agents to premier league clubs or that level and say Celtic fancy this guy are you willing to pay more?
So in the market we are competing with West Ham, or really Tv rights means we cant compete if they want pay bit more.
You mention poor planning off it.
But thats the point of it all
Clubs will hang off till deadline if they think Celtic really want or need him just so that The big CL clubs and the tv right rich clubs can maybe pay more.
So the planning or dithering isn't necessarily From Celtic end.
The only way to be prepared would be to plan season before for Champions league, but that relies on players having good form whole season into next and also the players not being tempted by these same mega tv right clubs.
Now the transfer market for English clubs is month before us and its before the play offs finish so it means we would still have month without key player at most critical time of season for club should big money offer big deal to take away a part of the team.
So planning is seriously hindered by window and the market subsidised clubs
Would you really fancy having a Maribor player as CL upgrade?
Its possible they would be decent players but really do they fit the bill
Cluj are good team But I wouldn't want any of their players if Im honest
And over two legs with that wonky window, its unlikely the planning can be solved without over paying for the players we rate which again nullifies the entire point of scouting them since we dont get massive windfall
1 Solution could be the window is forced shut for all clubs 1 week before first round of CL qualifiers but opens in May
That way you have your team for whole season in before first big game.
But to blame Lawell is ludicrous
It was Rodgers who was playing funny buggers
It was his signings whom he had alleged unwritten deals that mostly wanted out.
And it was rogers who put the players wages up so high club is burning 83 million operation costs
But those contracts are signed now and thats the level the players expect going forward
Throw in the inflation in player wages and purchase prices from the tv rights clubs who dominate the market
And then for good measure we have a malicious press deliberately creating mayhem
We may not play west ham
But their spending power affects the level of players we can attract because the players will say look Lawell premier league clubs offer 50k wages
You claim to be better club than them but offer 20 k
And press call Celtic skintflints
And talk about 60 million from CL
And goad the club to overspend knowing lost fans just want better players, but that massive boost of spending power from TV prices Celtic out of the market for players that would love to play in front of 60k fans
And next season they get another 100 million and have done now for many many seasons so the disparity in income gets worse and the Sky leagues take all the best players and all the champions of Europe outside sky deals fight in sub standard market for gems and if they find one the big market comes and takes him away simply because they can quadruple the salaries of the players.
None of that stuff is lawless fault
I hate his face
I dont trust him
But to blame him constantly for doing a pretty amazing job competing against the big league clubs, not beating them but giving them a decent run for their money.
But the reality is 4 games against champions means 1 bad game can have serious repercussions for the next season since we are way over the healthy sustainable wage limits and are in high risk mode already.
And when the players have a bad game or lose or we cant get the right player at the right time isn't Lawells fault imo
The press love to attack him
They love the division
They love the talking utter tripe about income but never talk about the huge costs already burning every season
But most fans just want Celtic to be able to compete against The Real Madrids Bayern Munich Man uniteds
But tv deals run by zionist minded money men have it all rigged to create this inflation in game, the lop sided market conditions and the dictatorial conditions that suit their agendas and fill their tax havens with the booty with intense corruption right through the entire zionist minded administrations across Europe.
I really wouldn't be surprised if these sky dudes have cash funnels keeping the lights on at Ibrox coz it suits their tv rights better to have their zionist mucker across the city ticking over.
We have a masonic/zionist press
Masonic zionist FA
and a dead club masquerading as the ghost of Rangers past
And I wouldn't be surprised if Eufa are run by the same types but with different languages
Oh and Celtic being on side of the anti zionist agenda means the media and the FA guys across Europe run by similarly minded men must detest Celtic still competing
Yet Lawell must go
We need better players?
Anyway Lawell doesn't do himself any favours with his arrogant demeanour but hey ho, The huns are convinced he is the reason Rangers have been cheated
Apparently they claim he runs the media
And he runs the FA
And its rigged in favour of Celtic
And Sevco are being systematically abused
Yet King never gets a bad word said about him ever despite being a known crook
But its lawell that must go.
And its all because we cant buy the players because we dont get tv right deals from zionist tv companies who hate Celtic and love the sevco
but what about the 60 million
Its buttons in football now
It doesn't buy you the high grade Celtic used to be able to afford
Henrik Larsson wages if he played today would be in 200K per week minimum probably 500k
Im no even sure our best 11 get that kind of money between them
So would Henrik have turned down mega bucks to play for celtic?
No?
Must be lawell being skint flint then
TET
Well-known member
How do you prepare for next year when wages are limited on on edge already?
How do you get players as good as these guys willing to take that wage?
How do you pay guys for next year when the wages are burst before you bring them in?
You need money and when west hams are getting 100 million fro sky its even harder to compete for good enough players who are CL qualifier ready.
I can only repeat what niall said to you earlier..
I think as far as Europe is concerned most fans just want us to go into qualifiers as strong as is possible. that hasn't been the case for a long time. lustig needed replaced years before it actually happened and that's not because of lack of finances it was because we have been a shambles behind the scene and this affects what you see on the pitch. when we did eventually replace him it was with Hatem who for 2million looks like good business so it can be done but only if a full time director of football working in harmony with the board and manager are in place. if you think we can't ever compete in Europe again then that's you but I think we can as long as we are well run behind the scenes hh
TET
Well-known member
your just no listening mate
your expectations are stymied by factors outside the boards control
They cannot achieve your expectations with a wonky window system coupled with market buyers and sellers getting bungs that allow them to dictate terms that affect running Celtic
Its like saying
The price of what we need is beyond our means
But we need it anyway and at a time that suits us
So the board suck because we the fans need it NOW
Board get the blame for things beyond their control
They dont have a money tree
They cant force other clubs to sell at time that suits Celtic unless they pay miles too much with money they dont have and agents will offer any player on their books getting offered an early transfer in window to richer clubs before deal is concluded.
I give you McGinn as example
And the many many nearly buys at English transfer window only for player to get better terms
Im suggesting this system is rigged
You cant blame board for vitriolic system
And that system prevents good planning with its many many snares hidden from fans deliberately by malicious press and clandestine barriers
The system presently is designed to make money for the hidden agenda men and their agents, masquerading as fair
your expectations are stymied by factors outside the boards control
They cannot achieve your expectations with a wonky window system coupled with market buyers and sellers getting bungs that allow them to dictate terms that affect running Celtic
Its like saying
The price of what we need is beyond our means
But we need it anyway and at a time that suits us
So the board suck because we the fans need it NOW
Board get the blame for things beyond their control
They dont have a money tree
They cant force other clubs to sell at time that suits Celtic unless they pay miles too much with money they dont have and agents will offer any player on their books getting offered an early transfer in window to richer clubs before deal is concluded.
I give you McGinn as example
And the many many nearly buys at English transfer window only for player to get better terms
Im suggesting this system is rigged
You cant blame board for vitriolic system
And that system prevents good planning with its many many snares hidden from fans deliberately by malicious press and clandestine barriers
The system presently is designed to make money for the hidden agenda men and their agents, masquerading as fair
It's clear to me we could argue all day and not change our respected views and that's fine but I will say this, I would fancy the team as it is now to qualify for champions league more often than not and qualify from our Europa league group while maintaining domestic dominance and that really is all I expect as a fan... if this board can't provide that then maybe it's time they stepped aside because I don't think it's too much to ask given all we invest as fans.
COWDENPIX
Well-known member
TET you make clear and valid points about our business model, but on the McGinn point, this was a deal about more than the player wanting to come and us wanting him. The personal politics between Lawell and petrie, the difference in fee or whatever.
Hibs would not have knocked back 5m (fair price to all bar our peter) coupled with a reasonable contract (which he would have taken) would have been a perfect buy at the time(Broony is getting on a bit) and easily fitted our business plan.
So for me the McGinn deal was a professional mistake ruined by personality preening and a failure to see that perhaps an extra million (max) was in fact all that was needed to get a fantastic player and a great deal
Hibs would not have knocked back 5m (fair price to all bar our peter) coupled with a reasonable contract (which he would have taken) would have been a perfect buy at the time(Broony is getting on a bit) and easily fitted our business plan.
So for me the McGinn deal was a professional mistake ruined by personality preening and a failure to see that perhaps an extra million (max) was in fact all that was needed to get a fantastic player and a great deal
TET
Well-known member
This is speculation imo
At end of day he was offered better wages and better terms than we could offer him.
I wanted him to sign
The player chose not to sign and to be honest I dont think he was gonna get the kind of game time he got at AV
Again speculation on my part
he had 6 months to go at Hibs before free to sign whereever
The player chose what he chose, possibly the guaranteed key player status sealed deal but I suspect the better wages were attractive.
Lawell job is to ask manager how much he wants player and his role at club, then decide if it makes financial sense based on the managers input.
Wages get negotiated after manager relates his role in squad.
Lawell may have assumed player would sign for less wages than at AV
But overall the package McGinn chose was best for him personally and he has thrived since. I don't think he would have displaced Brown or McGregor often personally, but again that's hypothetical, what we know is a championship club could out muscle Celtic financially and Celtic made a financial decision based on the known knowns at time.
Woulda been great player in squad imo but was the Celtic offer good offer?
I think it was fair offer based on the known knowns at time.
Could we have paid more?
Sure.
But I think a key factor was Rodgers had been very poor in spotting talent for good price for club. And the club were not prepared to expand the wages further for a player who at time wasn't much better, if at all, than what we had at time. Maybe still isn't any better than our huge range of Midfield talent both in first and youth team.
TET
Well-known member
The reason club couldn't get these players in before CL qualifiers I have already explained above.
You say what your asking is not too much to ask.
And I say its not in the boards hands to get it done before selling party are happy to conclude deal.
And while window is open that is problematic and beyond any boards control without paying extra premium and that wouldn't have guaranteed anything in a tight two leg cup tie.
So you may think its viable, and it is but it costs a lot more with no guarantees and a 1 month window at crucial part of season.
Its the window thats the problem.
COWDENPIX
Well-known member
totally getting what your saying TET but the celtic deal was dead before AV, and perhaps a bit more cash for these sort of deals when it matters, would take the english cash out the equation.
The best we'll get from England are young hungry talents who run their contracts down or loans.
As a club if were looking at this market to spend cash then Peter definitely needs his jitters...
HH
