Scottish Independence

[Prague67Bhoy]

Naw, but that is exactly why brexit is such a cluster fuck, BBB?

I'm pretty sure that the heavy industries that the commonwealth turned a buck on are all but gone. The giant supermarkets have pretty much complete ownership of arable land. The dependence on fossil fuel has seen the Americans drain our oil reserves (if they were actually ours in the first instance) and along with it, any notion that britain has any influence to exert.

The only relevance of an isolated Britain, is that it gives Russia, or perhaps China, an entry point into western Europe with either gas or steel bribes.

Britain has as much clout as their token monarch and it is dependent on their relationship with mainland Europe for any remaining car industry of note, or profitable mass production industries. Without these fluid trading links, the tariffs imposed on Britain will cripple its economy and these foreign investors will happily fuck off to central and Eastern Europe to open their production points.

Britain sealed its own fate when it tarted itself out to America Post WWII. That is the most principled reason why Scotland needs independence, to forge its own path with our European neighbours and disengage itself from the tumour that's weighing us down and eating us from the inside out.

Forget oil, that was never on the agenda as a feasible long-term revenue stream, but there are more important geographical features and resources that make our corner of the island an attractive proposition to mainland Europe. During the entente cordial, France weren't interested in us due to our military might. They were interested in our location and nuisance value.

In the aftermath of any brexit agreement, Nethanhayu, MBS, Putin and China will be making eyes at britain with nothing but their own interests at heart. Britain will become the world's biggest laundry for dirty money, dirty fuel, dirty nuclear plants and dirty blood diamonds.

Then again, according to bozo boris, nasty nigel and little tommy tit robinson, we'll have a thriving health service (ha fuckin ha), less immigration and sterling world trading partners that will generate trillions in trade (ha fuckin haha).

Regardless of anyone's political perspective, brexit doesn't play out well for Scotland, it doesn't play out well for Ulster - and Wales will effectively have english county-status.

An independent Scottish Republic doesn't immediately turn into industrial utopia. It will struggle for generations to come until it carves its own wee niche through a willing to adapt and finding alternative solutions ; however - it would be OUR struggle alone, not one enforced by westminster dimwits who have all the vision of stevie wonder in a pea-souper.

It's NOT a nationalist question. It does not automatically assume that the SNP are the most influential political presence. It is a means to an end which will represent a new beginning.

If we fuck up, then it will be our fuck up. We can even take ownership of it and be proud of it, but surely it's better than being buckled up the chutney by Westminster on a fairly regularly occurring basis?

It's all hypotheticals in the meantime, you're right to assert that the world is pissing itself laughing, BBB. That same world is also pissing itself laughing at the mentally challenged fool operating in Washington and if you need further evidence of the future of britain after being subjugated by Russia, then look no further than Washington and the shutdowns, trade defecits and having it's arse felt by the great bear.

MD referred to a potential civil war in the aftermath of any independence strategoy. I happen to think he has a point. The thing is that that may not be as bloody and protracted as other civil conflicts, in so much that the voices of dissent are the hard-line orange bastards whose relevance is being diluted year-by-year. Up north - the decent protestant population want no part of that jambo-ree. That's also being evidenced in Ulster while they procrastinate over their own commitment to their future. It's a negative prognosis, but not any more negative than families being unable to feed themselves and a second Highland clearance as a result of a hard brexit and no hope of soft trade deals with Europe. In that scenario, there is no fucking way the English will allow us to feed ourselves. Our resources will be topping up the swamp down south.

I'm not an authority on the subject and I'm certainly not an expert, but I do believe that we have a once in a lifetime opportunity to make our presence felt and start a long, painful - but ultimately promising chapter in our country's long history.

This is among the finest, most eloquent, and also most elegant posts that I have read on this subject.
I have not lived in Scotland for about 30 years and for the past 20 I have resided in the Czech Republic. Given my long-term absence, I have resisted the urge to excessively add my voice to either the Brexit issue or to the matter of Scottish independence. However, it is painful to watch business investment flood east in anticipation of a Brexit cluster fuck.
Here in the Czech Republic, unemployment is hovering just above 2.7% yet more and more FDI pours in because this nation is a member of the EU. Leave the EU and all the jobs will soon follow through the exit door. One of my part time roles is with a major robotics manufacturer which has so many orders that the lag time for delivery is more than seven months (basically, there are more jobs than people to fill the available roles.) At the moment, if you lose your job over here you will probably find a new one inside a month.....or inside a week!
In reality, Czechs are acutely Euro-sceptic but despite that they would not dream of leaving the union. Sure, they recognise the bloated bureaucracy, but there is an understanding that a union of 27 or 28 national entities requires a huge amount of bureaucrats! Economically, it is just not worth considering Czexit!
Moreover, university education in Scotland is free for Czech students, just as university education here is free for Scottish students....and there are many other tangible benefits of the relationship that has been forged since 2004 when the Czech joined the club.
Sure, there is a nationalist political party (the populist SPD or Svoboda a přímá demokracie) but it is minor and is unlikely to make much headway. There are a great many supporters of the SPD who, despite all their nationalistic ferver, support the principles of the EU (albeit with a desire for some reforms).
I cannot get my head around why Brexit, with the flight of capital and employment, would appeal to anyone in Scotland. The argument that a second vote would be an attack on democracy is build from straw. No one would buy a newspaper that was 30 months out of date...... for the simple reason it is 30 months out of date. Likewise, the Brexit vote is 30 months out of date.....and the landscape has changed!
From afar, I would love to see Scotland gain independence and then take steps to re-engage with the EU. It is not just a matter of economics and defence....there are more 'mundane' tangible benefits for us all. Sure, the new Scottish Republic may suffer teething problems, but as masters of your own destiny you could find the right solutions.

 

[Benignus]

This is among the finest, most eloquent, and also most elegant posts that I have read on this subject.
I have not lived in Scotland for about 30 years and for the past 20 I have resided in the Czech Republic. Given my long-term absence, I have resisted the urge to excessively add my voice to either the Brexit issue or to the matter of Scottish independence. However, it is painful to watch business investment flood east in anticipation of a Brexit cluster fuck.
Here in the Czech Republic, unemployment is hovering just above 2.7% yet more and more FDI pours in because this nation is a member of the EU. Leave the EU and all the jobs will soon follow through the exit door. One of my part time roles is with a major robotics manufacturer which has so many orders that the lag time for delivery is more than seven months (basically, there are more jobs than people to fill the available roles.) At the moment, if you lose your job over here you will probably find a new one inside a month.....or inside a week!
In reality, Czechs are acutely Euro-sceptic but despite that they would not dream of leaving the union. Sure, they recognise the bloated bureaucracy, but there is an understanding that a union of 27 or 28 national entities requires a huge amount of bureaucrats! Economically, it is just not worth considering Czexit!
Moreover, university education in Scotland is free for Czech students, just as university education here is free for Scottish students....and there are many other tangible benefits of the relationship that has been forged since 2004 when the Czech joined the club.
Sure, there is a nationalist political party (the populist SPD or Svoboda a přímá demokracie) but it is minor and is unlikely to make much headway. There are a great many supporters of the SPD who, despite all their nationalistic ferver, support the principles of the EU (albeit with a desire for some reforms).
I cannot get my head around why Brexit, with the flight of capital and employment, would appeal to anyone in Scotland. The argument that a second vote would be an attack on democracy is build from straw. No one would buy a newspaper that was 30 months out of date...... for the simple reason it is 30 months out of date. Likewise, the Brexit vote is 30 months out of date.....and the landscape has changed!
From afar, I would love to see Scotland gain independence and then take steps to re-engage with the EU. It is not just a matter of economics and defence....there are more 'mundane' tangible benefits for us all. Sure, the new Scottish Republic may suffer teething problems, but as masters of your own destiny you could find the right solutions.

Morning P67Bhoy, if you want to see how low the quality of the brexit debate has become, google mark francois letter, and you will get a glimpse of how dangerous it is now become.
We now have a Maggie May during PM Questions on Wednesday saying a second vote would be a threat to social cohesion in Britain, right wing brexiteers are also talking up possible trouble, I watched a copper on the news a couple of days ago saying that the spike in hate crimes after the brexit vote 2 years ago, isn't a spike at all it's the new norm.
The ugly side of England is showing it's face and I hope the day when we leave her to her own devices comes sooner rather than later.

 

[Lemon]

Scottish independence, Brexit? I have lived in England for many years now and both the above scenarios involve a separation for me from people whom I regard as my brothers and sisters. Whatever the outcome the money men will make money, some new money men will be created and some auld money men will fall but the vast majority of us will just continue doing the best we can for our families, scrambling for the relative and literal peanuts up for grabs. ?

 

[Spherical Planet]

This is among the finest, most eloquent, and also most elegant posts that I have read on this subject.
I have not lived in Scotland for about 30 years and for the past 20 I have resided in the Czech Republic. Given my long-term absence, I have resisted the urge to excessively add my voice to either the Brexit issue or to the matter of Scottish independence. However, it is painful to watch business investment flood east in anticipation of a Brexit cluster fuck.
Here in the Czech Republic, unemployment is hovering just above 2.7% yet more and more FDI pours in because this nation is a member of the EU. Leave the EU and all the jobs will soon follow through the exit door. One of my part time roles is with a major robotics manufacturer which has so many orders that the lag time for delivery is more than seven months (basically, there are more jobs than people to fill the available roles.) At the moment, if you lose your job over here you will probably find a new one inside a month.....or inside a week!
In reality, Czechs are acutely Euro-sceptic but despite that they would not dream of leaving the union. Sure, they recognise the bloated bureaucracy, but there is an understanding that a union of 27 or 28 national entities requires a huge amount of bureaucrats! Economically, it is just not worth considering Czexit!
Moreover, university education in Scotland is free for Czech students, just as university education here is free for Scottish students....and there are many other tangible benefits of the relationship that has been forged since 2004 when the Czech joined the club.
Sure, there is a nationalist political party (the populist SPD or Svoboda a přímá demokracie) but it is minor and is unlikely to make much headway. There are a great many supporters of the SPD who, despite all their nationalistic ferver, support the principles of the EU (albeit with a desire for some reforms).
I cannot get my head around why Brexit, with the flight of capital and employment, would appeal to anyone in Scotland. The argument that a second vote would be an attack on democracy is build from straw. No one would buy a newspaper that was 30 months out of date...... for the simple reason it is 30 months out of date. Likewise, the Brexit vote is 30 months out of date.....and the landscape has changed!
From afar, I would love to see Scotland gain independence and then take steps to re-engage with the EU. It is not just a matter of economics and defence....there are more 'mundane' tangible benefits for us all. Sure, the new Scottish Republic may suffer teething problems, but as masters of your own destiny you could find the right solutions.

I'll stand to correct you, Prague67Bhoy, in my opinion - your analysis of the question is far more relevant and eloquent than anything I can say on the subject.

Even more so when you consider the fact that you reside in a historic cultural centre of Europe which has recently undergone two distinctive and potentially devastating separations. The first being the disengagement from the "Eastern Bloc". The second being the more amiable break from Slovakia.

I know that the first break was the source of much celebration in Czechoslovakia; however - it must have been a fairly daunting prospect to re-establish its position in Central Europe.

The car industry and tourist potential was a decent start, but any long-term strategy would require a willingness to make external investment an attractive proposition. That would mean having to endure significant pain and the knowledge that much of the Czech talent pool would migrate to optimise their own potential.

The Czechs also found new ways to reinvigorate the economy, Prague is now at the centre of the European film industry due to it's unique architecture and ideal location.

Hollywood has dipped it's toes into that ocean too, I doubt there has been a Bond movie or espionage thriller that hasn't utilised Prague in the last 30-years.

The sporting impact of a relatively small nation is profound too.

From Panenka to Navratilova. From ice-hockey to Kivitova. The Czechs have a proud history and it is an imprint which Scotland could feasibly replicate.

We have a tendency to cast our eyes towards the Scandinavian countries for inspiration, but realistically - our best role model would be the Czechs and the Slovaks.

I would be fascinated to find your perspectives on how that separation has impacted upon the population and the relationship between the two?

I think that model is potentially our own road map for a successful independence.

There will be an unavoidable rise in extremism at either end of the political spectrum, but balance can only be reached when the more open-minded members of society can see in full sight the dangers inherit in extremism.

I would also be really interested to know more about how The Czech Republic has managed with migration and integration?

One final question (just for now, I've plenty more), has there been a return to The Czech Republic of much of the talent who left at the onset of Perestroika, especially now that the country has reclaimed its identity and individuality again?

Thanks Prague67Bhoy, I think your experience and knowledge in this matter will perhaps go a long way in convincing some of our sceptics about the dangers of procrastination and accepting the status quo.

p. s.

Craig Levein hung Vanacek out to dry on Wednesday, just wondering if there has been any response locally to that?

 

[Spherical Planet]

Scottish independence, Brexit? I have lived in England for many years now and both the above scenarios involve a separation for me from people whom I regard as my brothers and sisters. Whatever the outcome the money men will make money, some new money men will be created and some auld money men will fall but the vast majority of us will just continue doing the best we can for our families, scrambling for the relative and literal peanuts up for grabs. ?

Come on home, Lemon, just don't go to any semis or finals at Hampden.

Let your family drink soft water from the tap instead of the chalky, limy stuff you have to endure down there.

Let them savour the 8th wonder of the world at Celtic Park and let them learn new levels of profanity that would make a sailor blush.

Come home, Lemon and stand with us.

After a few years, we'll be marching back down (Wallace style) to rout the English anyway.

Just get your bahookie up the road and be a part of two historic landmarks: 10iar & freedom.

 

[Lemon]

Come on home, Lemon, just don't go to any semis or finals at Hampden.

Let your family drink soft water from the tap instead of the chalky, limy stuff you have to endure down there.

Let them savour the 8th wonder of the world at Celtic Park and let them learn new levels of profanity that would make a sailor blush.

Come home, Lemon and stand with us.

After a few years, we'll be marching back down (Wallace style) to rout the English anyway.

Just get your bahookie up the road and be a part of two historic landmarks: 10iar & freedom.

Thought crosses my mind regularly SP. Alas despite my age I have a young daughter who is the love of my life and about to start secondary. I don't live with her mum so have my daughter 3 days a week. Returning to Scotland would mean giving that up or an expensive court case that I would probably lose ?

 

[Spherical Planet]

Thought crosses my mind regularly SP. Alas despite my age I have a young daughter who is the love of my life and about to start secondary. I don't live with her mum so have my daughter 3 days a week. Returning to Scotland would mean giving that up or an expensive court case that I would probably lose ?

Then your decision is the best one, Lemon...... You can be our Scottish Ambassador and your mission is to teach the savages the error of their ways.

Feel free to offer as much profanity in this teaching as you care to.

We'll regularly update you on our creative ways of making new swear words for your mission.

 

[Noah Billy]

This is among the finest, most eloquent, and also most elegant posts that I have read on this subject.
I have not lived in Scotland for about 30 years and for the past 20 I have resided in the Czech Republic. Given my long-term absence, I have resisted the urge to excessively add my voice to either the Brexit issue or to the matter of Scottish independence. However, it is painful to watch business investment flood east in anticipation of a Brexit cluster fuck.
Here in the Czech Republic, unemployment is hovering just above 2.7% yet more and more FDI pours in because this nation is a member of the EU. Leave the EU and all the jobs will soon follow through the exit door. One of my part time roles is with a major robotics manufacturer which has so many orders that the lag time for delivery is more than seven months (basically, there are more jobs than people to fill the available roles.) At the moment, if you lose your job over here you will probably find a new one inside a month.....or inside a week!
In reality, Czechs are acutely Euro-sceptic but despite that they would not dream of leaving the union. Sure, they recognise the bloated bureaucracy, but there is an understanding that a union of 27 or 28 national entities requires a huge amount of bureaucrats! Economically, it is just not worth considering Czexit!
Moreover, university education in Scotland is free for Czech students, just as university education here is free for Scottish students....and there are many other tangible benefits of the relationship that has been forged since 2004 when the Czech joined the club.
Sure, there is a nationalist political party (the populist SPD or Svoboda a přímá demokracie) but it is minor and is unlikely to make much headway. There are a great many supporters of the SPD who, despite all their nationalistic ferver, support the principles of the EU (albeit with a desire for some reforms).
I cannot get my head around why Brexit, with the flight of capital and employment, would appeal to anyone in Scotland. The argument that a second vote would be an attack on democracy is build from straw. No one would buy a newspaper that was 30 months out of date...... for the simple reason it is 30 months out of date. Likewise, the Brexit vote is 30 months out of date.....and the landscape has changed!
From afar, I would love to see Scotland gain independence and then take steps to re-engage with the EU. It is not just a matter of economics and defence....there are more 'mundane' tangible benefits for us all. Sure, the new Scottish Republic may suffer teething problems, but as masters of your own destiny you could find the right solutions.

That's a fantastic post mate and interesting to hear the perspective from a small central European country that would probably have a lot of similarities to an independent Scotland.
Brexit trundles on and no one I know who voted leave has changed their minds. I despair....the English working class must be amongst the most uneducated and unaware in the "Western" world.

 

[Lemon]

Then your decision is the best one, Lemon...... You can be our Scottish Ambassador and your mission is to teach the savages the error of their ways.

Feel free to offer as much profanity in this teaching as you care to.

We'll regularly update you on our creative ways of making new swear words for your mission.

I do employ a form of guerilla warfare, poking and prodding when they least expect it, letting them know the truth when media lies have blinded them, always trying to fight the good fight. Any extra ammunition is always welcome. ?

 

[Spherical Planet]

I do employ a form of guerilla warfare, poking and prodding when they least expect it, letting them know the truth when media lies have blinded them, always trying to fight the good fight. Any extra ammunition is always welcome. ?

Hahaha You may be a jinx, but you're definitely one of the good guys, Lemon.

Keep fighting the good fight and keep giving that lassie all the support she needs to go and make her mark.

That's a grand thing, Lemon, from one who doesn't have the responsibility of parenthood, I've got nothing but admiration for your commitment.

Power to your elbow and best wishes for your wee girl going to the big school.

 

[Lemon]

Yi'll make a grown man weep SP. Behave yirself, ah struggle a bit wi complements as a result of my inferiority complex ?

 

[Spherical Planet]

Yi'll make a grown man weep SP. Behave yirself, ah struggle a bit wi complements as a result of my inferiority complex ?

Nothing but the facts though, Lemon.

I know plenty boys that took a leave of absence and are currently living with their regrets.

Especially at this time. It's stressful enough for young folk nowadays, the step up to secondary is a huge transition and she'll need all the protection and support she can get.

It's not uncommon in your family either, I refer to your elders and how they uprooted to provide support to their family up here.

That's good genetics and morals being evidenced right there.

The apple didn't fall far from the tree.

 

[Lemon]

Nothing but the facts though, Lemon.

I know plenty boys that took a leave of absence and are currently living with their regrets.

Especially at this time. It's stressful enough for young folk nowadays, the step up to secondary is a huge transition and she'll need all the protection and support she can get.

It's not uncommon in your family either, I refer to your elders and how they uprooted to provide support to their family up here.

That's good genetics and morals being evidenced right there.

The apple didn't fall far from the tree.

Enough ?. Have you been up since early doors meditating tae have come up wi such insightful prose. Good on you and yours, keep up the good work.

 

[Prague67Bhoy]

I'll stand to correct you, Prague67Bhoy, in my opinion - your analysis of the question is far more relevant and eloquent than anything I can say on the subject.

Even more so when you consider the fact that you reside in a historic cultural centre of Europe which has recently undergone two distinctive and potentially devastating separations. The first being the disengagement from the "Eastern Bloc". The second being the more amiable break from Slovakia.

I know that the first break was the source of much celebration in Czechoslovakia; however - it must have been a fairly daunting prospect to re-establish its position in Central Europe.

The car industry and tourist potential was a decent start, but any long-term strategy would require a willingness to make external investment an attractive proposition. That would mean having to endure significant pain and the knowledge that much of the Czech talent pool would migrate to optimise their own potential.

The Czechs also found new ways to reinvigorate the economy, Prague is now at the centre of the European film industry due to it's unique architecture and ideal location.

Hollywood has dipped it's toes into that ocean too, I doubt there has been a Bond movie or espionage thriller that hasn't utilised Prague in the last 30-years.

The sporting impact of a relatively small nation is profound too.

From Panenka to Navratilova. From ice-hockey to Kivitova. The Czechs have a proud history and it is an imprint which Scotland could feasibly replicate.

We have a tendency to cast our eyes towards the Scandinavian countries for inspiration, but realistically - our best role model would be the Czechs and the Slovaks.

I would be fascinated to find your perspectives on how that separation has impacted upon the population and the relationship between the two?

I think that model is potentially our own road map for a successful independence.

There will be an unavoidable rise in extremism at either end of the political spectrum, but balance can only be reached when the more open-minded members of society can see in full sight the dangers inherit in extremism.

I would also be really interested to know more about how The Czech Republic has managed with migration and integration?

One final question (just for now, I've plenty more), has there been a return to The Czech Republic of much of the talent who left at the onset of Perestroika, especially now that the country has reclaimed its identity and individuality again?

Thanks Prague67Bhoy, I think your experience and knowledge in this matter will perhaps go a long way in convincing some of our sceptics about the dangers of procrastination and accepting the status quo.

p. s.

Craig Levein hung Vanacek out to dry on Wednesday, just wondering if there has been any response locally to that?

Thank you for your kindness, but I insist you are the better read. I am sure you are as keen as I am to avoid backslapping. So, to answer some of the questions posed:

The Slovaks have a great relationship with us, but as equals rather than a minority partner. Lots of Slovaks have chosen to move here, and many Czech have moved in the opposite direction. I have had a number of jobs in Slovakia and I am viewed as a service provider rather than some guru from the West. The Slovaks have developed a pride and confidence in themselves since the divorce. As a small nation they tend to look outwards more than inwards.

It is true, the Czechs do punch above their weight, but it is because we/they invest in their people. Yes, many move abroad.....but around half of the brain drain return with more talent and experience. We have a good education system and lots of technical school in place of comprehensives.

Life is far from perfect, we have larger and richer neighbours (Germany and Austria) who are able to outspend us and so a lot of property is in foreign hands. But a lot of foreigners remain here...marry locally....and their children are Czech, so in future generations I expect things will work out favourably.

Truthfully, I doubt that I will ever return to Scotland (not because of politics, but because my Czech wife and our daughters are now firmly established here). However, I haven't forgotten my roots.....and I would love to see lots of Scots take more control of their future years.