Whinging

[kelly]

Looks like he's took his baw n fkd off for the night bloggers take it personal

 

[Ferris Bueller]

In response to the original post, which I agree with in many aspects, negativity to me is partially a state of mind and partially a blend of emotions, such as frustration, anxiety and anger. It's not difficult to see why some of us are in a negative place, despite the victories, which will look better on the pages of the history books than they did on the pitch. The process of appointing Lennon appears to have been a shambles; since when does a major club announce that an offer has been made to a managerial prospect? And what value was there in offering a deal to Izaguirre? Doubly troubling given it was obviously on wages insufficient to have him seriously consider it.

I want to be positive but I can't help feeling a bit negative right now. No amount of pep talks or chastisement is going to magically change that. Experience (of pretty much every year since about 2001) is telling me that we won't show the kind of controlled ambition that we need to in order to make the leap from champions league qualifiers also rans to a team that can make the rich clubs sweat a bit. Ajax have done this, so can we. Who know what might have happened if we had shown a little more courage in the summer van Dijk left, actually qualified for the CL and had him with us for one last season?

If we can't voice those concerns amongst ourselves without being castigated it's a bad day. I didn't agree with the tone of James Forrest's post earlier but he's right when he says that we need to be able to share these views and criticise the leadership when we need to. We can't always wait until after the event. We, the fans, are the true guardians of the club. We are in a dangerous place right now and the Tr3ble won't change that.

We need to make sure those in charge know that we aren't as stupid or as gullible as they probably believe. We owe this to each other and to Celtic.

 

[Spherical Planet]

In response to the original post, which I agree with in many aspects, negativity to me is partially a state of mind and partially a blend of emotions, such as frustration, anxiety and anger. It's not difficult to see why some of us are in a negative place, despite the victories, which will look better on the pages of the history books than they did on the pitch. The process of appointing Lennon appears to have been a shambles; since when does a major club announce that an offer has been made to a managerial prospect? And what value was there in offering a deal to Izaguirre? Doubly troubling given it was obviously on wages insufficient to have him seriously consider it.

I want to be positive but I can't help feeling a bit negative right now. No amount of pep talks or chastisement is going to magically change that. Experience (of pretty much every year since about 2001) is telling me that we won't show the kind of controlled ambition that we need to in order to make the leap from champions league qualifiers also rans to a team that can make the rich clubs sweat a bit. Ajax have done this, so can we. Who know what might have happened if we had shown a little more courage in the summer van Dijk left, actually qualified for the CL and had him with us for one last season?

If we can't voice those concerns amongst ourselves without being castigated it's a bad day. I didn't agree with the tone of James Forrest's post earlier but he's right when he says that we need to be able to share these views and criticise the leadership when we need to. We can't always wait until after the event. We, the fans, are the true guardians of the club. We are in a dangerous place right now and the Tr3ble won't change that.

We need to make sure those in charge know that we aren't as stupid or as gullible as they probably believe. We owe this to each other and to Celtic.

The caveat to that is that many of us have experiences that pre-date 2001 and you only have to go back a further 12-years prior to that date to have known what it was to be flung into the midst of a living nightmare.

So with that in mind, many fans who are 25 and under have only ever known regularly occurring success and I hope that continues long into your dotage.

For those of us who are 25 and over, we were on our knees for far too long and far too often.

Crushing season after crushing season with some glimmers of hope, but ultimately even more crushing pain.

To know that kind of hurt is why we savour these moments and revel in a period of unprecedented success.

The truth is that, during that earlier period, there were better Celtic sides than this current team that won nothing. The fact that Tommy Burns came so close to winning the league before falling short broke a few hundred thousand hearts just a little bit more.

Those of you who are 25 and under, will also never know the gut-wrenching fear of how close Our Club came to being confined to an unmarked watery grave.

A previous cabal had run Our Club into the ground and had put us on the edge of the abyss.

This is not hyperbole.........that was the grim reality we faced.

So forgive me for not getting my neg on at the moment.

Forgive me for not pandering to my pessimism.

Forgive me for not kicking my cat through the window.

I've endured the worst as a Celtic fan, so I'll just about manage to tolerate the best of being a Celtic fan.

Live for the moment. Enjoy the present. The future will be upon you soon enough. Days may not always be like these, so embrace them and savour them while you can, because when the hurt comes......then by God, the memories may be all you have.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

For the record, Spherical, I'm way, way over 25 and recall the bad times all too well, unfortunately! I can't agree that this has any bearing on what we need to do now. It was worse once, so let's be content to do less than we should now?

 

[Spherical Planet]

For the record, Spherical, I'm way, way over 25 and recall the bad times all too well, unfortunately! I can't agree that this has any bearing on what we need to do now. It was worse once, so let's be content to do less than we should now?

No, of course not.

Once ambition, drive and hunger are gone, then the ball is well and truly burst; however - there still has to be proper perspective put on things.

We can't pre-empt failure by questioning a future which has yet to come to pass. It may well be that this appointment and incoming signings reap further, and perhaps greater, success.

The truth is, we just don't know!

What I do know, is that discontent starts with a grumble and not long after, it becomes a rumble and a roar.

Are there areas that need addressing? Of course there are, but until we actually see the remedies, then it's unfair to fully judge.

 

[SamTeàrlachH]

I want to be positive but I can't help feeling a bit negative right now. No amount of pep talks or chastisement is going to magically change that

Who's chastising you or attempting to give you pep talks? As is made clear in my post, I'm actually making an empirical argument against negativity. I can't and have absolutely no wish to police the personal feelings that Celtic fans or anyone else. But when they talk about Celtic 'downgrading' or whatever, I am entitled to voice my opinion that whoever came after Rodgers wasn't going to be of the same level as him as a coach But even taking that into account, the idea that Neil Lennon is some kind of major 'downgrade' on Rodgers takes a huge amount of revisionism regarding his tenure as a manager at our club the last time, as well as his time at Hibs (suddenly his time at Hibs, which people used to praise, has become a 'failure' and 'nightmare' to certain people). I actually heard somebody on a Celtic podcast calling his time at Hibs 'disastrous' - not only did he easily win them promotion, but he then got the newly promoted team to finish 4th in their fist season and challenge for second right to the last day of the season. His record against Celtic and Sevco as Hibs manager is better than any other manager. In fact, it was Neil Lennon's Hibs that gave us our most emphatic whipping this season domestically, with that 2-0 win over us at Easter Road. They could have won that by 3 or 4.

Ajax have done this, so can we.

It's an entirely false analogy jumped upon by the media and some fans who haven't really thought it through. Celtic are not Ajax's equal. We are actually a bigger club globally than them, but this was a team that was winning the Champions League in the 1990s. This is a club that has for DECADES pioneered a youth set up that literally has no equals in the world, producing a wealth of talent using a system that has had money poured into it and has been facilitated by the Dutch football authorities for decades. Celtic have nothing even remotely similar in place. That's something that can be worked towards - not something that is a reasonable demand for the present. Moreover, Ajax have much bigger financial resources than us. They spent 16 million on Daley Blind at the beginning of last season, while shelling out 12 million on Tadic and 10 million on Magallan. They had a couple of other 8 and 9 million signings. That's a lot of money. It's money Celtic can't afford to spend even if we get to the CL group stages. The Dutch league is much more financially lucrative and stable, while Dutch clubs are much more heavily subsidised by TV money than the Scottish league. They're also backed by the largest insurance and finance capital firms in Europe.

If we can't voice those concerns amongst ourselves without being castigated it's a bad day. I didn't agree with the tone of James Forrest's post earlier but he's right when he says that we need to be able to share these views and criticise the leadership when we need to. We can't always wait until after the event. We, the fans, are the true guardians of the club. We are in a dangerous place right now and the Tr3ble won't change that.

But who is stopping you from voicing those concerns? Among the cyberworld, these 'concerns' and viewpoints are the majority and are not being challenged. Nobody is censoring it. I'm absolutely 100% up for debates such as this - I'm not willing to indulge hysteria and people who are printing lies that have one purpose: to make our club look bad for their own agendas (they didn't want Neil Lennon, they don't like Peter Lawwell etc.). I'm all for criticising the Celtic board, the entire culture of which I think is unhealthy, and I'm all for legitimate criticism in general. If it's not working under Neil Lennon, I'll be the first to say it. I was majorly critical of his tactics at Ibrox (for me, this is much more worrying than the dip in form, which I don't think can be attributed to NL, but he made a right arse out of the tactics on the day). I'm talking about those who react to perfectly reasonable happenings with hardcore hysteria and privileged dummy-spitting narcissism. Everything is a disaster to these people. They even managed to turn the treble treble into a moment to attack the club and predict doom. As much as they have the right to write their blogs, I have my own right to criticise the manner of the discourse around this subject.

 

[Maria]

Who's chastising you or attempting to give you pep talks? As is made clear in my post, I'm actually making an empirical argument against negativity. I can't and have absolutely no wish to police the personal feelings that Celtic fans or anyone else. But when they talk about Celtic 'downgrading' or whatever, I am entitled to voice my opinion that whoever came after Rodgers wasn't going to be of the same level as him as a coach But even taking that into account, the idea that Neil Lennon is some kind of major 'downgrade' on Rodgers takes a huge amount of revisionism regarding his tenure as a manager at our club the last time, as well as his time at Hibs (suddenly his time at Hibs, which people used to praise, has become a 'failure' and 'nightmare' to certain people). I actually heard somebody on a Celtic podcast calling his time at Hibs 'disastrous' - not only did he easily win them promotion, but he then got the newly promoted team to finish 4th in their fist season and challenge for second right to the last day of the season. His record against Celtic and Sevco as Hibs manager is better than any other manager. In fact, it was Neil Lennon's Hibs that gave us our most emphatic whipping this season domestically, with that 2-0 win over us at Easter Road. They could have won that by 3 or 4.




It's an entirely false analogy jumped upon by the media and some fans who haven't really thought it through. Celtic are not Ajax's equal. We are actually a bigger club globally than them, but this was a team that was winning the Champions League in the 1990s. This is a club that has for DECADES pioneered a youth set up that literally has no equals in the world, producing a wealth of talent using a system that has had money poured into it and has been facilitated by the Dutch football authorities for decades. Celtic have nothing even remotely similar in place. That's something that can be worked towards - not something that is a reasonable demand for the present. Moreover, Ajax have much bigger financial resources than us. They spent 16 million on Daley Blind at the beginning of last season, while shelling out 12 million on Tadic and 10 million on Magallan. They had a couple of other 8 and 9 million signings. That's a lot of money. It's money Celtic can't afford to spend even if we get to the CL group stages. The Dutch league is much more financially lucrative and stable, while Dutch clubs are much more heavily subsidised by TV money than the Scottish league. They're also backed by the largest insurance and finance capital firms in Europe.




But who is stopping you from voicing those concerns? Among the cyberworld, these 'concerns' and viewpoints are the majority and are not being challenged. Nobody is censoring it. I'm absolutely 100% up for debates such as this - I'm not willing to indulge hysteria and people who are printing lies that have one purpose: to make our club look bad for their own agendas (they didn't want Neil Lennon, they don't like Peter Lawwell etc.). I'm all for criticising the Celtic board, the entire culture of which I think is unhealthy, and I'm all for legitimate criticism in general. If it's not working under Neil Lennon, I'll be the first to say it. I was majorly critical of his tactics at Ibrox (for me, this is much more worrying than the dip in form, which I don't think can be attributed to NL, but he made a right arse out of the tactics on the day). I'm talking about those who react to perfectly reasonable happenings with hardcore hysteria and privileged dummy-spitting narcissism. Everything is a disaster to these people. They even managed to turn the treble treble into a moment to attack the club and predict doom. As much as they have the right to write their blogs, I have my own right to criticise the manner of the discourse around this subject.

Fkn hell, r u tets love child ????

Soz tet but u know where am comin fae ???

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Oh, Sam... you've taken all of this very personally! And in terms of dummy spitting etc you've excelled far beyond those you sought to challenge. To be clear, I need someone to give me a logical, rather than empirical argument as to why I shouldn't feel negative, I've heard all the arguments - including yours - countless times over the years. And you can't discard the Ajax comparison so easily without understanding the point I'm making. They came up with a strategy, one that works for them, unlike many similar clubs. If they have the wherewithal to do this, so can we.

 

[kelly]

In response to the original post, which I agree with in many aspects, negativity to me is partially a state of mind and partially a blend of emotions, such as frustration, anxiety and anger. It's not difficult to see why some of us are in a negative place, despite the victories, which will look better on the pages of the history books than they did on the pitch. The process of appointing Lennon appears to have been a shambles; since when does a major club announce that an offer has been made to a managerial prospect? And what value was there in offering a deal to Izaguirre? Doubly troubling given it was obviously on wages insufficient to have him seriously consider it.

I want to be positive but I can't help feeling a bit negative right now. No amount of pep talks or chastisement is going to magically change that. Experience (of pretty much every year since about 2001) is telling me that we won't show the kind of controlled ambition that we need to in order to make the leap from champions league qualifiers also rans to a team that can make the rich clubs sweat a bit. Ajax have done this, so can we. Who know what might have happened if we had shown a little more courage in the summer van Dijk left, actually qualified for the CL and had him with us for one last season?

If we can't voice those concerns amongst ourselves without being castigated it's a bad day. I didn't agree with the tone of James Forrest's post earlier but he's right when he says that we need to be able to share these views and criticise the leadership when we need to. We can't always wait until after the event. We, the fans, are the true guardians of the club. We are in a dangerous place right now and the Tr3ble won't change that.

We need to make sure those in charge know that we aren't as stupid or as gullible as they probably believe. We owe this to each other and to Celtic.

Virgil was only ever coming here as a stepping stone to bigger things ,there was no way he was staying no matter what , same with wanyama , we will always be a stepping stone to get to the premier league

Ajax play in a far superior league than us , where teams are more competative and unlike scottish clubs ,Don't sit back and wait for uefa payments to help keep the lights on

were in a league where teams celebrate getting into the top six and go full tonto if they finish 2nd ,chuck in some plastic pitches

Were in the wrong movie , we can't help it and the lure of champions league football is'nt always enough

Rodgers used us when teams sussed out his system he had no plan b , he fkd off at the first chance his track in europe was an uttter disaster ,throw in his reckless spending on transfers ,and yet he's classed as a top class manager

His replacement ,not everyones choice

so who would yours have been





But to save going on

what do you want Celtic to do

 

[SamTeàrlachH]

Oh, Sam... you've taken all of this very personally! And in terms of dummy spitting etc you've excelled far beyond those you sought to challenge. To be clear, I need someone to give me a logical, rather than empirical argument as to why I shouldn't feel negative, I've heard all the arguments - including yours - countless times over the years. And you can't discard the Ajax comparison so easily without understanding the point I'm making. They came up with a strategy, one that works for them, unlike many similar clubs. If they have the wherewithal to do this, so can we.

Lol. So I'm the one taking it personally when you came on and reacted to this post by claiming that I was making an argument that people like you who have 'concerns' weren't allowed to air those concerns, like I have or want to have any say on what anyone says on this subject? I'm indulging in the very debate that you inferred I was trying to stifle. Look, I don't think you're making an argument against me as a person, lol. How on earth could you? I'm just not buying the idea that there's any kind of threat to stop criticism of the board or the manager or anything. It's the opposite, was one of my points. Hysteria reigns. But I have absolutely no will to try to make arguments to stop you feeling negative. You began your reply by essentially saying negativity is a subjective thing - of course this is true, but, in the case of Celtic, it's a subjective thing based on numerous objective factors. As I said, it's my hope that the negativity of our fans regarding certain matters is assuaged not by people writing on fitba forums, but by positive events happening on and off the park. Although, given people have managed to turn a treble treble into a negative, I won't be holding my breath. If Celtic had zero problems (and we never will have zero problems), some folk would be first in line to invent some.

Kelly just gave the key reasons why the Ajax model is not applicable: we play in Scotland, a much poorer league that is run by a truly antediluvian governing body (Ajax's b team is allowed to play in the lower leagues, which is a huge component of their youth success) - poorer in quality and in resources. It's why we can't invest the amounts of money Ajax have invested into the playing squad and their very well established youth setup.

 

[SamTeàrlachH]

Fkn hell, r u tets love child ????

Soz tet but u know where am comin fae ???

Is that an insult to me or him?

 

[Spherical Planet]

Oh, Sam... you've taken all of this very personally! And in terms of dummy spitting etc you've excelled far beyond those you sought to challenge. To be clear, I need someone to give me a logical, rather than empirical argument as to why I shouldn't feel negative, I've heard all the arguments - including yours - countless times over the years. And you can't discard the Ajax comparison so easily without understanding the point I'm making. They came up with a strategy, one that works for them, unlike many similar clubs. If they have the wherewithal to do this, so can we.

But herein lies the irony of your response to Sam, FB.

The main thrust of your initial post on this thread was to form a defence of those who were less than enamoured with the current state of affairs at Celtic.

The defensive line would have to be based on the premise that certain contributors to this thread had kinda taken things, um........personally?

It's a false proposition to level that accusation at Sam, when it would seem that there are those who are affronted by folk celebrating success.

That could actually be a definition of some who may be seen to be taking it personally.

 

[Spherical Planet]

Football defies all logic and reason.

There is no precedent for rational thought in football, that's why the huns died in 2012, they couldn't grasp the concept of logically living within their means.

Logic flew to the moon when money started corrupting the game down south.......you only have to look at Bolton and Portsmouth to see perfect examples.

No one can provide you with a logical argument, as logic is not a characteristic associated with following a football club.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The responses to my comments are typical of how these sorts of discussions quickly break down. You'll see that I originally "liked" Sam's post and even state that I agreed with aspects of what he / she had to say. I differed in my opinion on certain points. Sam then seems to take this difference of opinion as an attack, provoking a lengthy, dismissive reply, albeit one that time and thought has clearly been invested in. Others then join in with "what would you do better", "no that's you that is", "I know best", "but you're really James Forrest in disguise" etc. It's a pattern repeated throughout this forum I thought Celtic Noise was meant to be a forum encouraging debate, a platform for our views, not a shouting down exercise.

I have always, and will always, want the best for Celtic. Same as everyone else on here (lurkers excepted).

I'll leave it open now for the usual round of "last word" antics. I'll take it on the chin, I promise, just as long as no-one accuses me of being an Old Sevconian ?

 

[Spherical Planet]

The responses to my comments are typical of how these sorts of discussions quickly break down. You'll see that I originally "liked" Sam's post and even state that I agreed with aspects of what he / she had to say. I differed in my opinion on certain points. Sam then seems to take this difference of opinion as an attack, provoking a lengthy, dismissive reply, albeit one that time and thought has clearly been invested in. Others then join in with "what would you do better", "no that's you that is", "I know best", "but you're really James Forrest in disguise" etc. It's a pattern repeated throughout this forum I thought Celtic Noise was meant to be a forum encouraging debate, a platform for our views, not a shouting down exercise.

I have always, and will always, want the best for Celtic. Same as everyone else on here (lurkers excepted).

I'll leave it open now for the usual round of "last word" antics. I'll take it on the chin, I promise, just as long as no-one accuses me of being an Old Sevconian ?

The debate has been generally civilised by usual Scottish standards, FB, no one's credentials should be questioned and I've absolutely no doubt that your interests are only in what is best for Celtic.

It's a divisive topic, but when the first ball of the new season is kicked in anger, then I'm sure there will be a united front (until we're 2 down in the first 5 minutes anyway).

It's the unpredictability of football that draws us in and that is why it is important to live in, and enjoy, the moment.

No doubt the debate will ratchet up a gear or two when the window opens, but in the meantime, all we can do is speculate and offer an opinion.

 

[SamTeàrlachH]

The responses to my comments are typical of how these sorts of discussions quickly break down. You'll see that I originally "liked" Sam's post and even state that I agreed with aspects of what he / she had to say. I differed in my opinion on certain points. Sam then seems to take this difference of opinion as an attack, provoking a lengthy, dismissive reply, albeit one that time and thought has clearly been invested in. Others then join in with "what would you do better", "no that's you that is", "I know best", "but you're really James Forrest in disguise" etc. It's a pattern repeated throughout this forum I thought Celtic Noise was meant to be a forum encouraging debate, a platform for our views, not a shouting down exercise.

I have always, and will always, want the best for Celtic. Same as everyone else on here (lurkers excepted).

I'll leave it open now for the usual round of "last word" antics. I'll take it on the chin, I promise, just as long as no-one accuses me of being an Old Sevconian ?

Mate, I hold no ill will against you and wasn't trying to adopt any kind of dismissive tone. I was just countering your points according to my own opinions. I didn't once mention anything about anyone being James Forrest in disguise. James Forrest, as it happens, occasionally writes decent posts. I don't have anything against him either.

 

[SamTeàrlachH]

The debate has been generally civilised by usual Scottish standards, FB, no one's credentials should be questioned and I've absolutely no doubt that your interests are only in what is best for Celtic.

It's a divisive topic, but when the first ball of the new season is kicked in anger, then I'm sure there will be a united front (until we're 2 down in the first 5 minutes anyway).

It's the unpredictability of football that draws us in and that is why it is important to live in, and enjoy, the moment.

No doubt the debate will ratchet up a gear or two when the window opens, but in the meantime, all we can do is speculate and offer an opinion.

There's a bit in that excellent movie 'Friday Night Lights' when the QB kid is getting interviewed by uni scouts for a scholarship and the interviewer has to remind or point out to him that football (yank football obv) is supposed to be fun and people are supposed to enjoy it. Sometimes, when you look at the media and the entire culture of fitba here, I have to remind myself of that. And I'm guilty. When you're a grown adult and find yourself literally smashing things while watching a game of fitba, something has gone wrong in life.

 

[Spherical Planet]

There's a bit in that excellent movie 'Friday Night Lights' when the QB kid is getting interviewed by a uni and the interviewer has to remind him or point out to him that football (yank football obv) is supposed to be fun and people are supposed to enjoy it. Sometimes, when you look at the media and the entire culture of fitba, I have to remind myself of that. And I'm guilty. When you're a grown adult and find yourself literally smashing things while watching a game of fitba, something has gone wrong in life.

Sam, you started this thread and have shaped the whole thing with a touch of class.

There's been a varied range of opinion, but it's fitting that you should have the last word; however - by me posting this nonsense comment, you now have to put up one last post to close it out.

Take a bow HH

 

[P.Anthony]

Looks like he's took his baw n fkd off for the night bloggers take it personal

There's a bit in that excellent movie 'Friday Night Lights' when the QB kid is getting interviewed by uni scouts for a scholarship and the interviewer has to remind or point out to him that football (yank football obv) is supposed to be fun and people are supposed to enjoy it. Sometimes, when you look at the media and the entire culture of fitba here, I have to remind myself of that. And I'm guilty. When you're a grown adult and find yourself literally smashing things while watching a game of fitba, something has gone wrong in life.

Don't worry Sam its quite normal to smash things when Celtic are playing ?

 

[SamTeàrlachH]

Sam, you started this thread and have shaped the whole thing with a touch of class.

There's been a varied range of opinion, but it's fitting that you should have the last word; however - by me posting this nonsense comment, you now have to put up one last post to close it out.

Take a bow HH

Hahaha, now the pressure is on for me to write something profound. Nope ... nothing.