In the cold light of day

[michael duffy]

Judging from Ben's previous posts (all of which have been pretty eloquent), he seems like a smart guy, and I am sure that, acts of violence to his person aside, he will take into account all these responses and come away educated. My hope is that he addresses them in the face of an angry crowd.

And my guess is that if he had the balls to bring up such a controversial topic, knowing he'd be starting a firestorm, he'll face the music, too, so to speak.

Despite completely disagreeing with him on the "how" that he presents in this thread, I do think that the question about a way to make Celtic a more attractive international offering is a good one to discuss, from a purely football standpoint. It's a discussion that, as i don my Captain Obvious costume, has gotten off on the wrong foot.

Ben sing along to this and think about what is been sung and tell me were you would place this song in your genre.

Let the people sing their stories and their songs
And the music of their native land
Their lullabies and battlecries and songs of hope and joy
So join us hand in hand
All across this ancient land
Throughout the test of time
It was music that kept their spirits free
Those songs of yours and of mine

For those who are in love
There's a song that's warm and tender
For those who are oppressed
In song you can protest
So liberate your minds
And give your soul expression
Open up your hearts
I'll sing for you this song

Let the people sing their stories and their songs
And the music of their native land
Their lullabies and battlecries and songs of hope and joy
So join us hand in hand

All across this ancient land
Throughout the test of time
It was music that kept their spirits free
Those songs of yours and of mine
It was back in ancient times
The bard would tell his stories
Of the heroes, of the villain
Of the chieftains in the glen
Through Elizabethian time
And Cromwellian war and fury
Put our pipers to the sword
Killed our harpers and our bards

Let the people sing their stories and their songs
And the music of their native land
Their lullabies and battlecries and songs of hope and joy
So join us hand in hand
All across this ancient land
Throughout the test of time
It was music that kept their spirits free

Those songs of yours and of mine
Ireland, land of song
Your music lives forever
In its valleys, in its mountains
In its hills and in its glens
Our music did survive
Through famine and oppression
To the generations gone
I'll sing for you this song
Let the people sing their stories and their songsHail
And the music of their native land
Their lullabies and battlecries and songs of hope and joy
So join us hand in hand
All across this ancient land
Throughout the test of time
It was music that kept their spirits free
Those songs of yours and of mine

Hail Hail Boab!!!!

 

[lcafiero]

I have a lot more to say about all of this, but I have to go into work for about 4 hours. Be back later, I promise

Oh, and @boab1916 -- thanks, now that song is stuck in my head!

 

[boab1916]

I have a lot more to say about all of this, but I have to go into work for about 4 hours. Be back later, I promise

Oh, and @boab1916 -- thanks, now that song is stuck in my head!

Hopefully it remains there and its history is spread. HH enjoy your day

 

[Spherical Planet]

Lubo, I know you mean well, but your comment here has weighed on my mind for several days and I need to respond. And also understand that this is coming from a Celtic supporter, but one who is not Catholic, Irish, Scottish, or who fits the mold of a more ‘traditional’ Celtic supporter.

So firstly, the article this morning on Etims really resonated with me.
http://etims.net/?p=13935
There was a time in my life - before I was a strong Celtic supporter - that I had a desire to see a match at Ibrox to experience the atmosphere. The ‘Old Firm’ rilvalry is world famous for the passion, and it’s well beyond anything we have in America. The closest I can even think of would be a political rally - such as those supporting Trump in 2016 or Obama in 2008 - but I don’t think that’s a good comparison for a lot of reasons. Regardless, I no longer have any desire to go to Ibrox, even to watch Celtic win by a 5-0 scoreline. It is a place where hatred, bigotry, racism, and sectarianism are not only tolerated but actively celebrated. It is vile and reprehensible, and it’s something and someplace I want nothing to do with. And crucially, unlike the fringe element that can be found at a lot of clubs and even in society at large, this element at Ibrox is a feature rather than a bug. Rangers as an institution is a Masonic cult that celebrates William of Orange’s victory over the Catholics, and one of the defining characteristics of the Orange Order is that they view themselves as superior to those who don’t subscribe to their world view, whether that is defined by religion (non-Protestant), nationality (non-British), or race (non-white).

So the part that I want to disagree with you about is the behavior of our own fans and whether or not it is acceptable. And I’m going to lay down a marker here - if any behavior is bad enough to be found objectionable by one’s spouse, child, employer, or priest (or other religious leader for those like me who aren’t Catholic), then one should not engage in that sort of behavior anywhere or at any time.

So calling Kris Boyd a fat cunt is not okay. And calling him a bastard or an orange bastard isn’t okay either. You wouldn’t go into your child’s school or your church and hurl these insults, so why is it okay at a football ground (or on the Internet!)? And the fact that someone else is tossing these insults around doesnt excuse one’s own reprehensible behavior. We are, or should strive to be, better than this!

So with that out of the way... calling someone in the U.K. an “orange [fill in the blank]” is most definitely a sectarian insult and likely racist as well. Why? Because ‘Orange’ is not just a color but a very deliberate refereance to the Orange Order, and being a white Protestant is the most significant trait that defines membership of that organization. Or put another way, the Orange Order is by definition a sectarian organization, and by insulting the organization or one of its members, one is by definition hurling a sectarian insult. You can argue that the Order should be held up for scorn and ridicule (and you’d be right), but it’s a fallacy to claim that such insults aren’t sectarian in their nature.

Finally, I want to touch on the celebration of our clubs and supporters Irish roots. First off, that history is part of Celtic’s history and it is something that should be celebrated. I want to make that very clear before I go further. But the IRA chants and some (I emphase some here) of the rebel songs are found to be offensive to a lot of people both in the U.K. and elsewhere. The IRA is viewed in most parts of the world, including the U.K. and the USA, as a terrorist organization. The fact that it was, and still is in the 6 counties, a rebel army attempting to overthrow an oppressive foreign occupier is lost on most people who aren’t Irish or understand Irish history. (Indeed, George Washington would have gone down in history as a terrorist and a traitor had he not led the American colonies to victory in 1883). But the underlying fact remains that pro-IRA messages are viewed as pro-terrorist to those not from an Irish background or understand a fair amount of Irish history. People, and not just Rangers supporters, find these songs and messages hurtful and offensive.

If our club is ever going to be successful in building alliances and finding common ground with other clubs on a more than one-off basis, we would be well advised to cut the crap about the IRA because it makes us look like terrorists or, at best, terrorist sympathizers to those who don’t share that world view, be they Protestant, secular, Scottish, English, or even many non-Irish Catholics. We’re never going to get other clubs or other fans on our side as long as we tolerate, much less celebrate, such behavior. Pro-Ireland, sure. Pro-Catholic, sure. But there are better ways to celebrate Irish heritage than singing about perceived terrorists or the battles they’ve won against the British army, particularly when doing so in Britain!

Tell that to the citizens of Grenada, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan and all the other nations where America has ignored the sovereign rights of the indigenous population.

Perhaps the fight for American independence was before your time, but your country built its tradition on repelling British forces who were better armed and brutal.

They waged war against your pilgrims and waged war against our farmers. They fucking starved women and children and allowed them to die in crippling agony.

Whatever version you have of the IRA is surely the same interpretation as the one that the BBC, ITV and the British propaganda machine would have you believe, as it is certainly not my experience of brave men and women that sacrificed themselves to liberate their country.

It was the fucking British that invented "false flag" operations in the era of empire building and when you own the press, you create a different timeline and history.

It's only in the last 4-years that some of the actual truth is being uncovered in the press and if we don't stand up for the innocent blood that was brutally shed on Irish soil (on both sides of the divide), then believe this.......no one else will!!!

Do you find the racial intolerance and impunity of the KKK tolerable?

If not, then understand this. That is the reality of the orange order in Scotland!

They fucking hate, loathe, despise and fear us. We are their worst nightmare. A plague that must be eradicated in their eyes.

I appreciate that geography may not allow you to fully empathise, but that is our reality even now.

My family gets rounded up in UK conference season and has to sign into police stations on a daily basis, just like the dirty bastard sex offenders on SOPO's and all for the mere reason of being of Irish extraction.

Like your significant black population stripped from their cultural birthplaces, we were/are treated like 3rd and 4th class citizens. Irish not wanted. Irish need not apply. Irish go home.

Like your significant black population stripped from their cultural birthplace, we said: "No Fucking More"!!!

No more back of the fucking bus. No more eating the stale handouts of donations. No more random slashings and beatings in the street by razor gangs.

Like your significant black population stripped from their cultural birthplace. We n*****s got uppity and said even more loudly: "No Fucking More"!!!

You have our Club which you love and I do not doubt that.

But you have our club as a direct consequence of British brutality and depravity.

Never forget it!

Up the RA!!!

 

[boab1916]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1098700066150334465

 

[The Shamrock]

Tell that to the citizens of Grenada, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan and all the other nations where America has ignored the sovereign rights of the indigenous population.

Perhaps the fight for American independence was before your time, but your country built its tradition on repelling British forces who were better armed and brutal.

They waged war against your pilgrims and waged war against our farmers. They fucking starved women and children and allowed them to die in crippling agony.

Whatever version you have of the IRA is surely the same interpretation as the one that the BBC, ITV and the British propaganda machine would have you believe, as it is certainly not my experience of brave men and women that sacrificed themselves to liberate their country.

It was the fucking British that invented "false flag" operations in the era of empire building and when you own the press, you create a different timeline and history.

It's only in the last 4-years that some of the actual truth is being uncovered in the press and if we don't stand up for the innocent blood that was brutally shed on Irish soil (on both sides of the divide), then believe this.......no one else will!!!

Do you find the racial intolerance and impunity of the KKK tolerable?

If not, then understand this. That is the reality of the orange order in Scotland!

They fucking hate, loathe, despise and fear us. We are their worst nightmare. A plague that must be eradicated in their eyes.

I appreciate that geography may not allow you to fully empathise, but that is our reality even now.

My family gets rounded up in UK conference season and has to sign into police stations on a daily basis, just like the dirty bastard sex offenders on SOPO's and all for the mere reason of being of Irish extraction.

Like your significant black population stripped from their cultural birthplaces, we were/are treated like 3rd and 4th class citizens. Irish not wanted. Irish need not apply. Irish go home.

Like your significant black population stripped from their cultural birthplace, we said: "No Fucking More"!!!

No more back of the fucking bus. No more eating the stale handouts of donations. No more random slashings and beatings in the street by razor gangs.

Like your significant black population stripped from their cultural birthplace. We n*****s got uppity and said even more loudly: "No Fucking More"!!!

You have our Club which you love and I do not doubt that.

But you have our club as a direct consequence of British brutality and depravity.

Never forget it!

Up the RA!!!

That's just what I was gonna say only I was too fkn angry!!!!

 

[boab1916]

Tell that to the citizens of Grenada, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan and all the other nations where America has ignored the sovereign rights of the indigenous population.

Perhaps the fight for American independence was before your time, but your country built its tradition on repelling British forces who were better armed and brutal.

They waged war against your pilgrims and waged war against our farmers. They fucking starved women and children and allowed them to die in crippling agony.

Whatever version you have of the IRA is surely the same interpretation as the one that the BBC, ITV and the British propaganda machine would have you believe, as it is certainly not my experience of brave men and women that sacrificed themselves to liberate their country.

It was the fucking British that invented "false flag" operations in the era of empire building and when you own the press, you create a different timeline and history.

It's only in the last 4-years that some of the actual truth is being uncovered in the press and if we don't stand up for the innocent blood that was brutally shed on Irish soil (on both sides of the divide), then believe this.......no one else will!!!

Do you find the racial intolerance and impunity of the KKK tolerable?

If not, then understand this. That is the reality of the orange order in Scotland!

They fucking hate, loathe, despise and fear us. We are their worst nightmare. A plague that must be eradicated in their eyes.

I appreciate that geography may not allow you to fully empathise, but that is our reality even now.

My family gets rounded up in UK conference season and has to sign into police stations on a daily basis, just like the dirty bastard sex offenders on SOPO's and all for the mere reason of being of Irish extraction.

Like your significant black population stripped from their cultural birthplaces, we were/are treated like 3rd and 4th class citizens. Irish not wanted. Irish need not apply. Irish go home.

Like your significant black population stripped from their cultural birthplace, we said: "No Fucking More"!!!

No more back of the fucking bus. No more eating the stale handouts of donations. No more random slashings and beatings in the street by razor gangs.

Like your significant black population stripped from their cultural birthplace. We n*****s got uppity and said even more loudly: "No Fucking More"!!!

You have our Club which you love and I do not doubt that.

But you have our club as a direct consequence of British brutality and depravity.

Never forget it!

Up the RA!!!

 

[Maria]

Tell that to the citizens of Grenada, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan and all the other nations where America has ignored the sovereign rights of the indigenous population.

Perhaps the fight for American independence was before your time, but your country built its tradition on repelling British forces who were better armed and brutal.

They waged war against your pilgrims and waged war against our farmers. They fucking starved women and children and allowed them to die in crippling agony.

Whatever version you have of the IRA is surely the same interpretation as the one that the BBC, ITV and the British propaganda machine would have you believe, as it is certainly not my experience of brave men and women that sacrificed themselves to liberate their country.

It was the fucking British that invented "false flag" operations in the era of empire building and when you own the press, you create a different timeline and history.

It's only in the last 4-years that some of the actual truth is being uncovered in the press and if we don't stand up for the innocent blood that was brutally shed on Irish soil (on both sides of the divide), then believe this.......no one else will!!!

Do you find the racial intolerance and impunity of the KKK tolerable?

If not, then understand this. That is the reality of the orange order in Scotland!

They fucking hate, loathe, despise and fear us. We are their worst nightmare. A plague that must be eradicated in their eyes.

I appreciate that geography may not allow you to fully empathise, but that is our reality even now.

My family gets rounded up in UK conference season and has to sign into police stations on a daily basis, just like the dirty bastard sex offenders on SOPO's and all for the mere reason of being of Irish extraction.

Like your significant black population stripped from their cultural birthplaces, we were/are treated like 3rd and 4th class citizens. Irish not wanted. Irish need not apply. Irish go home.

Like your significant black population stripped from their cultural birthplace, we said: "No Fucking More"!!!

No more back of the fucking bus. No more eating the stale handouts of donations. No more random slashings and beatings in the street by razor gangs.

Like your significant black population stripped from their cultural birthplace. We n*****s got uppity and said even more loudly: "No Fucking More"!!!

You have our Club which you love and I do not doubt that.

But you have our club as a direct consequence of British brutality and depravity.

Never forget it!

Up the RA!!!

Well done my friend ???

 

[The Shamrock]

Well done my friend ???

And he's a lover, no a fighter tae. ?

 

[michael duffy]

And he's a lover, no a fighter tae. ?

same here, Hic!!!!! jist sayin....!

 

[Maria]

You're American too, yet you don't stand on a soapbox trying to ram your opinions down our throats. The word terrorist, absolutely sickens me. The countries of power use this word when some organisation challenges their wrongs, when they have committed worse atrocities on a larger scale. But that's ok, because it's all done for our freedom. I've been reading his posts for a while and he smells like a rat. He is spoutin the same sort of shite that a lad called anton was at months ago, before gettin banned off the forum

Yeah Anton pure had ? in his eyes for me ???

Well he wiz seein stars at the end ?

 

[Maria]

And he's a lover, no a fighter tae. ?

You makin tam well jeal ??

 

[The Shamrock]

You makin tam well jeal ??

Think that's the way to ramp it up!!!! ?

 

[Maria]

same here, Hic!!!!! jist sayin....!

Nah your a cutie michael ??

 

[The Deadner]

Tell that to the citizens of Grenada, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan and all the other nations where America has ignored the sovereign rights of the indigenous population.

Perhaps the fight for American independence was before your time, but your country built its tradition on repelling British forces who were better armed and brutal.

They waged war against your pilgrims and waged war against our farmers. They fucking starved women and children and allowed them to die in crippling agony.

Whatever version you have of the IRA is surely the same interpretation as the one that the BBC, ITV and the British propaganda machine would have you believe, as it is certainly not my experience of brave men and women that sacrificed themselves to liberate their country.

It was the fucking British that invented "false flag" operations in the era of empire building and when you own the press, you create a different timeline and history.

It's only in the last 4-years that some of the actual truth is being uncovered in the press and if we don't stand up for the innocent blood that was brutally shed on Irish soil (on both sides of the divide), then believe this.......no one else will!!!

Do you find the racial intolerance and impunity of the KKK tolerable?

If not, then understand this. That is the reality of the orange order in Scotland!

They fucking hate, loathe, despise and fear us. We are their worst nightmare. A plague that must be eradicated in their eyes.

I appreciate that geography may not allow you to fully empathise, but that is our reality even now.

My family gets rounded up in UK conference season and has to sign into police stations on a daily basis, just like the dirty bastard sex offenders on SOPO's and all for the mere reason of being of Irish extraction.

Like your significant black population stripped from their cultural birthplaces, we were/are treated like 3rd and 4th class citizens. Irish not wanted. Irish need not apply. Irish go home.

Like your significant black population stripped from their cultural birthplace, we said: "No Fucking More"!!!

No more back of the fucking bus. No more eating the stale handouts of donations. No more random slashings and beatings in the street by razor gangs.

Like your significant black population stripped from their cultural birthplace. We n*****s got uppity and said even more loudly: "No Fucking More"!!!

You have our Club which you love and I do not doubt that.

But you have our club as a direct consequence of British brutality and depravity.

Never forget it!

Up the RA!!!

Well said bigman. A wee bit more eloquently put than I could have.

 

[michael duffy]

Nah your a cutie michael ??

hahahaha! cannae hiv any wine it's got a cork and ah don't hiv a corkscrew, bastaaart!

 

[michael duffy]

Well said bigman. A wee bit more eloquently put than I could have.

phuq all wrong wi passion and speakin from the heart HH D!

 

[The Deadner]

One of the songs regularly sang at Celtic matches. Who's the fuckin terrorist here?

 

[Spherical Planet]

Oh no........your post hit the spot that other posts can't reach.

The spot where the pain lives and the same spot where memories continue to haunt us.

God Bless your friends, may they rest in peace.

 

[Benignus]

Lost a good mate today after a horrible battle with the big C, a St Johnstone and a die hard Scotland supporter who had the blood of the Celts flowing through his veins. If any comrades reading this who have far more faith than me might spare him a wee prayer it would help end this emotional few weeks, It will be appreciated more than you will ever know. B