In the cold light of day

Lubo, I know you mean well, but your comment here has weighed on my mind for several days and I need to respond. And also understand that this is coming from a Celtic supporter, but one who is not Catholic, Irish, Scottish, or who fits the mold of a more ‘traditional’ Celtic supporter.

So firstly, the article this morning on Etims really resonated with me.
http://etims.net/?p=13935
There was a time in my life - before I was a strong Celtic supporter - that I had a desire to see a match at Ibrox to experience the atmosphere. The ‘Old Firm’ rilvalry is world famous for the passion, and it’s well beyond anything we have in America. The closest I can even think of would be a political rally - such as those supporting Trump in 2016 or Obama in 2008 - but I don’t think that’s a good comparison for a lot of reasons. Regardless, I no longer have any desire to go to Ibrox, even to watch Celtic win by a 5-0 scoreline. It is a place where hatred, bigotry, racism, and sectarianism are not only tolerated but actively celebrated. It is vile and reprehensible, and it’s something and someplace I want nothing to do with. And crucially, unlike the fringe element that can be found at a lot of clubs and even in society at large, this element at Ibrox is a feature rather than a bug. Rangers as an institution is a Masonic cult that celebrates William of Orange’s victory over the Catholics, and one of the defining characteristics of the Orange Order is that they view themselves as superior to those who don’t subscribe to their world view, whether that is defined by religion (non-Protestant), nationality (non-British), or race (non-white).

So the part that I want to disagree with you about is the behavior of our own fans and whether or not it is acceptable. And I’m going to lay down a marker here - if any behavior is bad enough to be found objectionable by one’s spouse, child, employer, or priest (or other religious leader for those like me who aren’t Catholic), then one should not engage in that sort of behavior anywhere or at any time.

So calling Kris Boyd a fat cunt is not okay. And calling him a bastard or an orange bastard isn’t okay either. You wouldn’t go into your child’s school or your church and hurl these insults, so why is it okay at a football ground (or on the Internet!)? And the fact that someone else is tossing these insults around doesnt excuse one’s own reprehensible behavior. We are, or should strive to be, better than this!

So with that out of the way... calling someone in the U.K. an “orange [fill in the blank]” is most definitely a sectarian insult and likely racist as well. Why? Because ‘Orange’ is not just a color but a very deliberate refereance to the Orange Order, and being a white Protestant is the most significant trait that defines membership of that organization. Or put another way, the Orange Order is by definition a sectarian organization, and by insulting the organization or one of its members, one is by definition hurling a sectarian insult. You can argue that the Order should be held up for scorn and ridicule (and you’d be right), but it’s a fallacy to claim that such insults aren’t sectarian in their nature.

Finally, I want to touch on the celebration of our clubs and supporters Irish roots. First off, that history is part of Celtic’s history and it is something that should be celebrated. I want to make that very clear before I go further. But the IRA chants and some (I emphase some here) of the rebel songs are found to be offensive to a lot of people both in the U.K. and elsewhere. The IRA is viewed in most parts of the world, including the U.K. and the USA, as a terrorist organization. The fact that it was, and still is in the 6 counties, a rebel army attempting to overthrow an oppressive foreign occupier is lost on most people who aren’t Irish or understand Irish history. (Indeed, George Washington would have gone down in history as a terrorist and a traitor had he not led the American colonies to victory in 1883). But the underlying fact remains that pro-IRA messages are viewed as pro-terrorist to those not from an Irish background or understand a fair amount of Irish history. People, and not just Rangers supporters, find these songs and messages hurtful and offensive.

If our club is ever going to be successful in building alliances and finding common ground with other clubs on a more than one-off basis, we would be well advised to cut the crap about the IRA because it makes us look like terrorists or, at best, terrorist sympathizers to those who don’t share that world view, be they Protestant, secular, Scottish, English, or even many non-Irish Catholics. We’re never going to get other clubs or other fans on our side as long as we tolerate, much less celebrate, such behavior. Pro-Ireland, sure. Pro-Catholic, sure. But there are better ways to celebrate Irish heritage than singing about perceived terrorists or the battles they’ve won against the British army, particularly when doing so in Britain!
I've bit my lip for long enough reading your fuckin shite, but now you've crossed the line. My fuckin blood is boiling and I don't usually let shit like this annoy me, but who the fuckin hell do you think you are standing on your soapbox spoutin your shite about terrorists ye fuckin wanker. During the troubles in the six counties, there certainly were terrorists present, they were in a Brit uniform. I've been assaulted numerous times as a child by these fuckin tramps. I've had friends killed by them, and if it wasn't for the IRA it would have been far worse. And some fuckin dickhead in America is fuckin lecturing me about fuckin songs.... Fuck off. You have no idea what you're fuckin talkin about. Do you want me to start to tell you about all the acts of terror America has committed on innocent people? You sound remarkably like a prick that was fucked off this site a few months back. And I'll be quite honest with now, but if you were beside me right now I'd slap twenty different colours a shite outta ye fuckin arsehole
 
how do African Americans feel about the"black panthers"

Great examples overall in this post, Michael, but highlighting this one because one of my favorite stories (and I'm old enough to remember when this happened, though I was a wee teen, as you all might say) is when Bernadette Devlin took the "Key to the City" that then-New York Mayor John Lindsay gave to her, and gave it to the Black Panthers in an act of solidarity. This was in the early 1970s, but it always struck a chord with me.
 
Another case of someone coming on to the forum to tell us all where we're going wrong, how we must behave and even telling us how to think and believe.

Someone loves the sound of his own views but has probably never lived with the oppression that we and our ancestors have and until we are all equal I will still say UP THE RA.

I've had relatives that worked in Service and when they could get away from the drudgery of their English masters they would run guns for the benefit of the IRA as they wanted Ireland to be Irish and they were left with no option but to be supportive to the cause.
 
[
Great examples overall in this post, Michael, but highlighting this one because one of my favorite stories (and I'm old enough to remember when this happened, though I was a wee teen, as you all might say) is when Bernadette Devlin took the "Key to the City" that then-New York Mayor John Lindsay gave to her, and gave it to the Black Panthers in an act of solidarity. This was in the early 1970s, but it always struck a chord with me.
What about this zoomer, fluffs his lines and has not got a scooby doo he actually goes to Ibrox weekly.
 
I've bit my lip for long enough reading your fuckin shite, but now you've crossed the line. My fuckin blood is boiling and I don't usually let shit like this annoy me, but who the fuckin hell do you think you are standing on your soapbox spoutin your shite about terrorists ye fuckin wanker. During the troubles in the six counties, there certainly were terrorists present, they were in a Brit uniform. I've been assaulted numerous times as a child by these fuckin tramps. I've had friends killed by them, and if it wasn't for the IRA it would have been far worse. And some fuckin dickhead in America is fuckin lecturing me about fuckin songs.... Fuck off. You have no idea what you're fuckin talkin about. Do you want me to start to tell you about all the acts of terror America has committed on innocent people? You sound remarkably like a prick that was fucked off this site a few months back. And I'll be quite honest with now, but if you were beside me right now I'd slap twenty different colours a shite outta ye fuckin arsehole


Ah you were thinkin the same as me D ?

Don’t let it grind ye pal ?✊☘️
 
Lubo, I know you mean well, but your comment here has weighed on my mind for several days and I need to respond. And also understand that this is coming from a Celtic supporter, but one who is not Catholic, Irish, Scottish, or who fits the mold of a more ‘traditional’ Celtic supporter.

So firstly, the article this morning on Etims really resonated with me.
http://etims.net/?p=13935
There was a time in my life - before I was a strong Celtic supporter - that I had a desire to see a match at Ibrox to experience the atmosphere. The ‘Old Firm’ rilvalry is world famous for the passion, and it’s well beyond anything we have in America. The closest I can even think of would be a political rally - such as those supporting Trump in 2016 or Obama in 2008 - but I don’t think that’s a good comparison for a lot of reasons. Regardless, I no longer have any desire to go to Ibrox, even to watch Celtic win by a 5-0 scoreline. It is a place where hatred, bigotry, racism, and sectarianism are not only tolerated but actively celebrated. It is vile and reprehensible, and it’s something and someplace I want nothing to do with. And crucially, unlike the fringe element that can be found at a lot of clubs and even in society at large, this element at Ibrox is a feature rather than a bug. Rangers as an institution is a Masonic cult that celebrates William of Orange’s victory over the Catholics, and one of the defining characteristics of the Orange Order is that they view themselves as superior to those who don’t subscribe to their world view, whether that is defined by religion (non-Protestant), nationality (non-British), or race (non-white).

So the part that I want to disagree with you about is the behavior of our own fans and whether or not it is acceptable. And I’m going to lay down a marker here - if any behavior is bad enough to be found objectionable by one’s spouse, child, employer, or priest (or other religious leader for those like me who aren’t Catholic), then one should not engage in that sort of behavior anywhere or at any time.

So calling Kris Boyd a fat cunt is not okay. And calling him a bastard or an orange bastard isn’t okay either. You wouldn’t go into your child’s school or your church and hurl these insults, so why is it okay at a football ground (or on the Internet!)? And the fact that someone else is tossing these insults around doesnt excuse one’s own reprehensible behavior. We are, or should strive to be, better than this!

So with that out of the way... calling someone in the U.K. an “orange [fill in the blank]” is most definitely a sectarian insult and likely racist as well. Why? Because ‘Orange’ is not just a color but a very deliberate refereance to the Orange Order, and being a white Protestant is the most significant trait that defines membership of that organization. Or put another way, the Orange Order is by definition a sectarian organization, and by insulting the organization or one of its members, one is by definition hurling a sectarian insult. You can argue that the Order should be held up for scorn and ridicule (and you’d be right), but it’s a fallacy to claim that such insults aren’t sectarian in their nature.

Finally, I want to touch on the celebration of our clubs and supporters Irish roots. First off, that history is part of Celtic’s history and it is something that should be celebrated. I want to make that very clear before I go further. But the IRA chants and some (I emphase some here) of the rebel songs are found to be offensive to a lot of people both in the U.K. and elsewhere. The IRA is viewed in most parts of the world, including the U.K. and the USA, as a terrorist organization. The fact that it was, and still is in the 6 counties, a rebel army attempting to overthrow an oppressive foreign occupier is lost on most people who aren’t Irish or understand Irish history. (Indeed, George Washington would have gone down in history as a terrorist and a traitor had he not led the American colonies to victory in 1883). But the underlying fact remains that pro-IRA messages are viewed as pro-terrorist to those not from an Irish background or understand a fair amount of Irish history. People, and not just Rangers supporters, find these songs and messages hurtful and offensive.

If our club is ever going to be successful in building alliances and finding common ground with other clubs on a more than one-off basis, we would be well advised to cut the crap about the IRA because it makes us look like terrorists or, at best, terrorist sympathizers to those who don’t share that world view, be they Protestant, secular, Scottish, English, or even many non-Irish Catholics. We’re never going to get other clubs or other fans on our side as long as we tolerate, much less celebrate, such behavior. Pro-Ireland, sure. Pro-Catholic, sure. But there are better ways to celebrate Irish heritage than singing about perceived terrorists or the battles they’ve won against the British army, particularly when doing so in Britain!
Rangers is an institution alright... like Monty Python's parrot. It has passed on, this parrot is no more, it has ceased to be, it is expired and gone to see its maker; this is a late parrot... this is an ex-parrot.
 
@boab1916 -- This defies reason. How can this nutjob be EDL? They'd kill him just as soon as look at him over his race.
He is a nutjob thick as feck, could not fight sleep either. Imagine this headline in America

A Muslim Rangers supporter who chanted sectarian remarks at a game at Ibrox Stadium has been fined £600.
Its like a member of the Klu Klux Klan been charged with black panther offences
 
He is a nutjob thick as feck, could not fight sleep either. Imagine this headline in America

A Muslim Rangers supporter who chanted sectarian remarks at a game at Ibrox Stadium has been fined £600.
Its like a member of the Klu Klux Klan been charged with black panther offences
Larry could you picture the EDL muslim and this guy in a phone box together having an argument.
Really sad this is someones offspring. Muslim rayguns

 
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I've bit my lip for long enough reading your fuckin shite, but now you've crossed the line, et cetera . . .

Judging from Ben's previous posts (all of which have been pretty eloquent), he seems like a smart guy, and I am sure that, acts of violence to his person aside, he will take into account all these responses and come away educated. My hope is that he addresses them in the face of an angry crowd.

And my guess is that if he had the balls to bring up such a controversial topic, knowing he'd be starting a firestorm, he'll face the music, too, so to speak.

Despite completely disagreeing with him on the "how" that he presents in this thread, I do think that the question about a way to make Celtic a more attractive international offering is a good one to discuss, from a purely football standpoint. It's a discussion that, as i don my Captain Obvious costume, has gotten off on the wrong foot.
 
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*sigh*

The home club, Killie in this instance, is indeed responsible for stewards, security, and policing if necessary. However, regardless of the adequacy or inadequacy of those arrangements, our fans - and nobody but our fans - are responsible for their own actions.

If there were crazy people, or a mob, that stormed the local Tesco the looted and vandalized the place, it would be ridiculous for them to absolve themselves responsibility under the false pretense that Tesco didn’t provide sufficient security to stop them. It’s a ludicrous arguement to make, and the fact that we’re transferring this from Tesco to a football stadium doesn’t make it any less ludicrous.

Killie had responsibility for stewarding and security arrangements. But our fans had a responsibility to behave in an acceptable manner (not difficult!) by refraining from throwing coins, damaging property, and - allegedly - hurling sectarian insults toward opposing team player(s).
Ben sing along to this and think about what is been sung and tell me were you would place this song in your genre.
Let the people sing their stories and their songs
And the music of their native land
Their lullabies and battlecries and songs of hope and joy
So join us hand in hand
All across this ancient land
Throughout the test of time
It was music that kept their spirits free
Those songs of yours and of mine

For those who are in love
There's a song that's warm and tender
For those who are oppressed
In song you can protest
So liberate your minds
And give your soul expression
Open up your hearts
I'll sing for you this song

Let the people sing their stories and their songs
And the music of their native land
Their lullabies and battlecries and songs of hope and joy
So join us hand in hand

All across this ancient land
Throughout the test of time
It was music that kept their spirits free
Those songs of yours and of mine
It was back in ancient times
The bard would tell his stories
Of the heroes, of the villain
Of the chieftains in the glen
Through Elizabethian time
And Cromwellian war and fury
Put our pipers to the sword
Killed our harpers and our bards

Let the people sing their stories and their songs
And the music of their native land
Their lullabies and battlecries and songs of hope and joy
So join us hand in hand
All across this ancient land
Throughout the test of time
It was music that kept their spirits free

Those songs of yours and of mine
Ireland, land of song
Your music lives forever
In its valleys, in its mountains
In its hills and in its glens
Our music did survive
Through famine and oppression
To the generations gone
I'll sing for you this song
Let the people sing their stories and their songs
And the music of their native land
Their lullabies and battlecries and songs of hope and joy
So join us hand in hand
All across this ancient land
Throughout the test of time
It was music that kept their spirits free
Those songs of yours and of mine
 
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Judging from Ben's previous posts (all of which have been pretty eloquent), he seems like a smart guy, and I am sure that, acts of violence to his person aside, he will take into account all these responses and come away educated. My hope is that he addresses them in the face of a maddened crowd.

Despite completely disagreeing with him on the "how" that he presents in this thread, I do think that the question about a way to make Celtic a more attractive international offering is a good one to discuss, from a purely football standpoint.

It's just the attitude that comes from someone who doesn't realise that he's lecturing folk on here who still remember what it's like to be asked which school you attended when at a job interview, not because they were interested in the standard of education but to make sure you weren't a Catholic.

We are not sitting at the back of the bus again.
 
L, he seems to be viewing Celtic from a purely business perspective (like our board)but from our view,experiences and history,we are more than that and we'll never forget where we came from,the club that emerged from oppression and subjugation, to where we are today,more than just a football club, HH, L.
 
It's just the attitude that comes from someone who doesn't realise that he's lecturing folk on here who still remember what it's like to be asked which school you attended when at a job interview, not because they were interested in the standard of education but to make sure you weren't a Catholic.

We are not sitting at the back of the bus again.

I hear you loud and clear, Shamrock, and I completely agree.

L, he seems to be viewing Celtic from a purely business perspective (like our board)but from our view,experiences and history,we are more than that and we'll never forget where we came from,the club that emerged from oppression and subjugation, to where we are today,more than just a football club, HH, L.

I agree, Michael. And I think he's smart enough to have learned this expensive lesson . . . .
 
Judging from Ben's previous posts (all of which have been pretty eloquent), he seems like a smart guy, and I am sure that, acts of violence to his person aside, he will take into account all these responses and come away educated. My hope is that he addresses them in the face of an angry crowd.

And my guess is that if he had the balls to bring up such a controversial topic, knowing he'd be starting a firestorm, he'll face the music, too, so to speak.

Despite completely disagreeing with him on the "how" that he presents in this thread, I do think that the question about a way to make Celtic a more attractive international offering is a good one to discuss, from a purely football standpoint. It's a discussion that, as i don my Captain Obvious costume, has gotten off on the wrong foot.
You're American too, yet you don't stand on a soapbox trying to ram your opinions down our throats. The word terrorist, absolutely sickens me. The countries of power use this word when some organisation challenges their wrongs, when they have committed worse atrocities on a larger scale. But that's ok, because it's all done for our freedom. I've been reading his posts for a while and he smells like a rat. He is spoutin the same sort of shite that a lad called anton was at months ago, before gettin banned off the forum
 
It's just the attitude that comes from someone who doesn't realise that he's lecturing folk on here who still remember what it's like to be asked which school you attended when at a job interview, not because they were interested in the standard of education but to make sure you weren't a Catholic.

We are not sitting at the back of the bus again.

[B]Gerry Adams[/B]‏Verified account @[B]GerryAdamsSF[/B] 5h5 hours ago
http://www.leargas.blogspot.com The reality is that there is no tolerance – none – among nationalists and republicans for going back into political institutions which function as they did before. Martin put it best. There can be, there will be, no return to the status quo
D0CFxmYX0AAtHnM.jpg
 
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